TODR Petition

[pedrocasilva]

It's where nearly all new JRPGs are going at the moment, besides handhelds (the real winners in Japan). Where no-name games like Blue Dragon can manage 200k units. Inversely, Lost Odyssey came overseas and has done around 200k itself + 100k in Japan. 360 is the system to play new JRPGs on at the moment. Tales isn't the only thing still coming for it. Infinite Undiscovery is also around the corner. Star Ocean 4 is uncertain, and the only exclusives that matter going to PS3 are the FFXIII games, and maybe White Knight Chronicle. Disgaea 3 came and went, didn't really come close to replicating Disgaea 2's success.

Blue Dragon and Lost Odyseey were paid by Microsoft directly, no sane developer would put them there. Also those numbers are pretty much flops for Japan, I bet with you PS3 would have sould better.

As for Disgaea, sure it sold less than the previous, but you have to see PS2 had a way broader userbase, and I'll agree, the game looks like a upscaled Ps2 game so it was stupid to put it in there so soon.

Unfinite Undiscovery was also moneyhatted by M$ AFAIK, they were even publishing, if they aren't now. that's just how they work they think they can buy everything to risrupt the way the market goes, instead they're making a load of titles being sent for their deaths. The darn thing doesn't sell in Japan, after all, no getting around that.

Not, I'm not a PS3 fan either, but X360 is getting ridiculous.

But at the end of the day, what gamers give a damn about platform, behind-the-scenes "moneyhats" and all these other meaningless straws that console warriors enjoy grasping at to justify their discontentment? Unless you've got parents that won't let you have more than one. Seriously. Why does it matter? I think it's hilarious when people complain about X game being for Y platform. I'm a gamer. I only care about games. Hardware companies can kiss my ass. When there are games I want, I buy the platform they're on. No more complaints! It's quite nice.

It does matter, and no, I'm not at a age that I'm bound to my parents, I have more to do than be buying a X360 for games that market-wise shouldn't be coming there as preferential support.

If you're going just for multiplatform gamers you're going for a thin userbase too, realistically. Neogaf can make a lot of noise, but they can't make a good game flopping into a success.

Lastly... I'd rather pay for software than for hardware; and like I explained, PSone and PS2 were self justified, this is a spit in my face.

One or two titles being paid support would be okay, moneyhatting and pretty much crapping out the whole flow of the market is not. And it's what Microsoft is doing.

The only other people I've seen complain with this much hyperbole about Vesperia are die-hard Nintendo-devotees. *Picard facepalm*

Why not? Sony ones as well, X360-exclusive must come out as idiotic for them as it comes for me.

Tales official US forum when vesperia was unveiled, I recall a lot of people were hoping for nintendo, some for PS3... and none for X360.

it's just how it is, Namco obliged them to get a darn X360. I refuse though, I also have the right and it's a stupid move on their part nevertheless. And looking at what I'm getting, it's a disrespect too. (that's probably why Nintendo fans are so vocal about it too, we're getting a game with 5 year old assets and from team-b working at part-time, they're basically spitting on our face)

[jajaswipo]

well lets face it, Bamco is doing a high risk smart gamble. SMART, but high risk. How many rpg's are there for the 360 right now? What is one of the big complaints people had with the 360 from its launch till now?
Next to no rpg's. Their planning to release a good game(hopefully) in a season with no final fantasy's on a system with hardly any rpg's. Throw in a bit of advertising and bam, you just sold 200k.

Unfortunatly, this is what happened with eternal sonata although it was multiplatform. Lets face it though, just about every person on this forum would play even TOT when faced with eternal sonata


what does this mean? well like i said, smart move, but a really risky gamble.

if it were to be released on ps3 that would be a different story. (hoping someone would analyze this and post the possible outcomes if it were released on ps3)

[pedrocasilva]

well lets face it, Bamco is doing a high risk smart gamble. SMART, but high risk. How many rpg's are there for the 360 right now? What is one of the big complaints people had with the 360 from its launch till now?
Next to no rpg's. Their planning to release a good game(hopefully) in a season with no final fantasy's on a system with hardly any rpg's. Throw in a bit of advertising and bam, you just sold 200k.

200k is crap even for Tales standards, Symphonia sold way more than that in US. Let alone all tales games in Japan.

I certainly don't think they're smart, if I was at Namco and trying to run Tales into the ground I'd make it for X360; that's stupid though, more than risky.

Even because, they probably have a lot of the development costs paid by Microsoft, but it's still idiotic to risk one of their big franchises on that.

Unfortunatly, this is what happened with eternal sonata although it was multiplatform. Lets face it though, just about every person on this forum would play even TOT when faced with eternal sonata

Eternal Sonata was not multiplatform, it's still being ported for PS3. Hence why it's a utterly stupid move. if it was multiplatform it would be a freebye for X360 being that they're similar platforms and all... As is, they made it for X360 and now are wasting a lot more money in porting it.

It's not cost effective as it could be; since it's not multiplatform, it's doing it, not planning a port... and then porting it.

what does this mean? well like i said, smart move, but a really risky gamble.

risky gamble that flopped. If that was a test on the Wii we'd have crappy media sites telling "oh nows Wii can't sell software" and the debeloper could even drop support, X360? get's a even bigger thing! it's madness (and definetly moneyhatted)

if it were to be released on ps3 that would be a different story. (hoping someone would analyze this and post the possible outcomes if it were released on ps3)

I don't root for PS3, but PS3 would be understandable by their point of userbases and the argument of "we started doing it before PS3 is where it is now" (that is still way better than X360 is regarding RPG's and sales in Japan).

Port for X360? sure I'd aplaud that, and perhaps even prefer it to a PS3 version (I hate bluray boxes) BUT... I can't cope and try to justify a exclusive like that; it's just utterly stupid.

And in the end the platform that is leading, and successor to the one who sold most tales in US and Europe... is getting a cheap, second priority game. How could I think I'm not being spitted on when consoles that don't sell in Japan take the cake?

Yeah, Namco has no respect for their userbases and does bad decisions for all that I care.

[Rhapsody]

Next to no rpg's. Their planning to release a good game(hopefully) in a season with no final fantasy's on a system with hardly any rpg's. Throw in a bit of advertising and bam, you just sold 200k.

Well the Tales series doesn't do too well outside of Japan, so most of those sales would have to be back home for them. Even if you assume (ludicrously) that half of those sales come from outside Japan, that leaves 100k for Japan. Or in other words, about one sixth of the entire Japanese Xbox 360 market. That's not quite insane on an Atari level, but still pretty optimistic.

[Kajitani-Eizan]

seeing as how PS3 is essentially "lol bluray and MGS coming down the line" and wii is essentially "gamecube with fancy motion control" (not meant to be an insult, unlike the PS3 rip), i'm not seeing any other options on their part anyway for creating a "next-gen/HD" tales. x360 is a great system; why wouldn't they develop for it? while the japanese userbase is obviously a bit lower, i'm pretty sure it's doing rather well in the US.

as far as the US branch goes, i'm actually surprised they localized RM. that's another platform jump right there. i'm not sure how well RM did, but i would have thought the original ToDR would have been a better choice, seeing as how it's on an established tales platform... hell, they could probably have released director's cut a year later as well, which might have made a bit of extra money.

[Cless]

Blue Dragon and Lost Odyseey were paid by Microsoft directly, no sane developer would put them there. Also those numbers are pretty much flops for Japan, I bet with you PS3 would have sould better.

As for Disgaea, sure it sold less than the previous, but you have to see PS2 had a way broader userbase, and I'll agree, the game looks like a upscaled Ps2 game so it was stupid to put it in there so soon.

Unfinite Undiscovery was also moneyhatted by M$ AFAIK, they were even publishing, if they aren't now. that's just how they work they think they can buy everything to risrupt the way the market goes, instead they're making a load of titles being sent for their deaths. The darn thing doesn't sell in Japan, after all, no getting around that.

Not, I'm not a PS3 fan either, but X360 is getting ridiculous.It does matter, and no, I'm not at a age that I'm bound to my parents, I have more to do than be buying a X360 for games that market-wise shouldn't be coming there as preferential support.

Moneyhats! Moneyhats! I still don't know what that has to do about fun games. It's all moot to me.

Besides that, even 300k of console game sales is almost unheard of these days in Japan unless your company's name is Nintendo Co Ltd. 3rd party sales aren't much better on the Wii. Opoona (reviewed favorably in Famitsu, and even piques my interest a bit) bombed even harder than the crappy Enchanted Arms games did on 360. About the only RPGs doing worse are those Idea Factory atrocities.

More than ever, Japanese console developers need western sales. I would argue the 360 has a larger hardcore install base than the Wii does in western countries. And because of that, it's less of a surprise to me that Bandai Namco is putting more effort into the localization this time, and that the game is also being designed with a western audience in mind for once. Let's also not forget that the 360 dominates third party sales over here in North America.

I don't believe Namco's decision is as ridiculous as your hyperbole suggests. The game isn't being made solely for Japanese gamers. I don't see it replicating Symphonia GC's worldwide success either, but if they play their cards right, it has the potential of at least doing half. And that would be pretty freaking good.

If you're going just for multiplatform gamers you're going for a thin userbase too, realistically.

This doesn't make any sense at all. How does going multiplatform shrink a game's userbase? Going PS2 more than doubled Symphonia's Japanese one.

One or two titles being paid support would be okay, moneyhatting and pretty much crapping out the whole flow of the market is not. And it's what Microsoft is doing.Why not? Sony ones as well, X360-exclusive must come out as idiotic for them as it comes for me.

Nintendo sure isn't helping things by having zero quality control on third party titles. It gives them less incentive to try. I sure don't enjoy the crapping out of zillions of simplistic mini-game titles.

Tales official US forum when vesperia was unveiled, I recall a lot of people were hoping for nintendo, some for PS3... and none for X360.

Who honestly expected it? Nobody did. At first. But it was clear where it was going thanks to the website source code leaking it up front. Where I've been, the Sony fanboys weren't nearly as vocal as the Nintendo fanboys. Maybe it's because a future port is pretty much obvious.

I don't care in the least that the Wii is getting a so-called "lesser" title. To me, it looks like the best one the series has yet seen, and may *gasp*, be the first one that I actually find enjoyable. The only thing I don't like is the point and click world map. It could be a whole lot worse. I'm glad it's not Tales of Symphonia Narikiri Dungeon.

[Kajitani-Eizan]

To me, it looks like the best one the series has yet seen, and may *gasp*, be the first one that I actually find enjoyable.

wait, you didn't find any of the other tales games enjoyable?

(first "spinoff" you might find enjoyable, i suppose?)

[Cless]

wait, you didn't find any of the other tales games enjoyable?

(first "spinoff" you might find enjoyable, i suppose?)

yeah, of course

[jajaswipo]

nobody knows what namco is doing man. as i said, its a risky but smart move because you have a lot of potential fanbase with the 360 in the U.S. more so than the two other systems. Knowing namco though they will probly find a way to release a wii/ps3 version of the game in japan saying the U.S version was an exclusive in the U.S. market or something. It happened with Symphonia, so it'll probly happen again.

So while the game is still in development....

WHO WANTS TO HELP ME WITH MY KANJI?!?!?!?!

somebody link me to a site where i can learn for free, or a site where i can buy a book reminiscent of the high school japanese textbooks(I like spanish and all, but i think i should have chosen japanese class over spanish years ago)

[pedrocasilva]

seeing as how PS3 is essentially "lol bluray and MGS coming down the line" and wii is essentially "gamecube with fancy motion control" (not meant to be an insult, unlike the PS3 rip), i'm not seeing any other options on their part anyway for creating a "next-gen/HD" tales. x360 is a great system; why wouldn't they develop for it? while the japanese userbase is obviously a bit lower, i'm pretty sure it's doing rather well in the US.

Because their public is in Japan, where the system doesn't sell, and it's RPG's, even the second party ons paid by Microsoft were sent to die.

And if we're going by those... It's essentially "lolz, xbox 1.5 we had halo, then moneyhatted the rest of our line-up"

as far as the US branch goes, i'm actually surprised they localized RM. that's another platform jump right there. i'm not sure how well RM did, but i would have thought the original ToDR would have been a better choice, seeing as how it's on an established tales platform... hell, they could probably have released director's cut a year later as well, which might have made a bit of extra money.

I agree.

I bet it has to do with the gameplay style of the game though.

Opoona (reviewed favorably in Famitsu, and even piques my interest a bit) bombed even harder than the crappy Enchanted Arms games did on 360. About the only RPGs doing worse are those Idea Factory atrocities.

It has no name, did anyone expect it to be a success?

More than ever, Japanese console developers need western sales. I would argue the 360 has a larger hardcore install base than the Wii does in western countries. And because of that, it's less of a surprise to me that Bandai Namco is putting more effort into the localization this time, and that the game is also being designed with a western audience in mind for once. Let's also not forget that the 360 dominates third party sales over here in North America.

Then, they go for the console that doesn't sell in Japan; far from ideal.

I don't believe Namco's decision is as ridiculous as your hyperbole suggests. The game isn't being made solely for Japanese gamers. I don't see it replicating Symphonia GC's worldwide success either, but if they play their cards right, it has the potential of at least doing half. And that would be pretty freaking good.

quite the contrary, I bet they can smell their Japanese sales shrinking like mad, so of course they wouldn't focus on it.

This doesn't make any sense at all. How does going multiplatform shrink a game's userbase? Going PS2 more than doubled Symphonia's Japanese one.

Namco said so when debating the viability of Abyss on GC.

Makes some sense given that they soild like a extra 100.000 units in Japan so it wasn't worth it for them, given that they sold usually 650.000 units; instead they felt they were dividing userbases.

Still GC was not Xbox1 or X360.

Nintendo sure isn't helping things by having zero quality control on third party titles. It gives them less incentive to try. I sure don't enjoy the crapping out of zillions of simplistic mini-game titles.

Because they have no support, start refusing stuff and the third party's will go elsewhere or complain a lot about Nintendo; it's not like Nintendo has a choice. They also did put dev kits costing $1700 (very, very cheap) but aparently it was just so developers could do cheaper crap.

Who honestly expected it? Nobody did. At first. But it was clear where it was going thanks to the website source code leaking it up front. Where I've been, the Sony fanboys weren't nearly as vocal as the Nintendo fanboys. Maybe it's because a future port is pretty much obvious.

Perhaps, we're left with a game with recycled assets though.

And even for a Ps3 guy "a port will eventually come" is a pretty crap statement, they're more of a core userbase than X360 is by a mile. Are they Secondary to X360 owners to Namco?

I don't care in the least that the Wii is getting a so-called "lesser" title. To me, it looks like the best one the series has yet seen, and may *gasp*, be the first one that I actually find enjoyable. The only thing I don't like is the point and click world map. It could be a whole lot worse. I'm glad it's not Tales of Symphonia Narikiri Dungeon.

Fair enough, I can't share that though, and I'd say you should be more hyped for Vesperia (and probably are) by a mile. It's simply the better title, with bigger budget, bigger effort, best team, etc etc.

ToS2? filler meant to recycle assets, and that sucks for me.

[Rhapsody]

seeing as how PS3 is essentially "lol bluray and MGS coming down the line" and wii is essentially "gamecube with fancy motion control" (not meant to be an insult, unlike the PS3 rip), i'm not seeing any other options on their part anyway for creating a "next-gen/HD" tales. x360 is a great system; why wouldn't they develop for it? while the japanese userbase is obviously a bit lower, i'm pretty sure it's doing rather well in the US.

I know all of this, but I'm still a bit like the Japanese userbase. I just can't bring myself to buy an Xbox 360. I can sit on Amazon.co.uk all day looking at the very reasonably priced Xbox 360 Elite, but my hands will not place an order. They won't let me take that step.

But then I can't really buy a PlayStation 3 either. The 40GB version (the only one available in my region) doesn't do as much as the 80GB model the NTSC regions have, has a hard drive a third of the size of the previously mentioned (and cheaper) Xbox 360 Elite, and doesn't have nearly as many good games as either of the other two big consoles.

I have a Wii though, and I'm having fun there. Maybe I'll just skip the mainstream seventh generation consoles entirely, wait for Microsoft to screw up and lose the market like Sony did before them (and Nintendo before them, and Atari before them), do something more productive with my life.

More than ever, Japanese console developers need western sales. I would argue the 360 has a larger hardcore install base than the Wii does in western countries.

According to Wikipedia, you're right, but not by a huge margin:

Xbox 360 sales (excluding Japan) = 17.5 million
Wii sales (excluding Japan) = 15.12 million

The Xbox 360 figures are slightly more recent, but it shouldn't make much of a difference. Also, for some fun:

PlayStation 3 sales (including Japan) = 10.49 million

I hate it when Microsoft wins.

[throughhim413]

Because their public is in Japan, where the system doesn't sell, and it's RPG's, even the second party ons paid by Microsoft were sent to die.

Are you still upset that you guessed wrong on what system the Tales series was going to?  I don't know how you can still make these arguments.  Your economic statements is based in a bizarre world where there is no such thing as international commerce or game localization.

Putting Tales of Vesperia on the 360 makes far more sense then putting it on the PS3. Period.

The international userbase (which they've made it clear they're going after) is many times larger on the 360 than the PS3.  Namco is making a smart bet.  People don't buy games for systems they don't have, that's true no matter if you're Japanese or something else.  What reason did Namco have to go PS3 with the new Tales game?  Because they worked with Sony in the past?  Not really a good reason.  Because the PS3 is easier to work on?  Not from what most companies have been saying about PS3 dev work.  Because there's a larger potential userbase?  Nope.

Also, moneyhatting?  Why do you care if they did or didn't get money for it?  If they're getting money for it, good for them.  That means the game needs fewer sales to make them happy.  You want to blame Namco for taking money for an exclusive (timed or otherwise)?  Try blaming Sony for failing to follow up on the success of the PS2.  A few years ago, the PS2 was the obvious choice for games.  If you look at the numbers now, the 360 has more users, more variety, more popularity, and more features.  If I were running a company, it would be Sony that would have to pony up cash to get an exclusive.  If MGS4 doesn't do just fantastic AND stay exclusive, the PS3 will have lost the one potential selling point it had for many people over the last several years.  Sony has lost their market share.  Nintendo now holds the majority, but have no real intention of following up with it by pushing hard for 3rd party games it would seem.  Sony wants to get a following, but ridiculous move after ridiculous move have pushed gamers away.  Microsoft is pulling in high profile titles and building the kind of userbase that the PS2 once had in terms of variety.

In short, your arguments just don't hold water in the real world.  You seem to believe that because Bandai Namco is a Japanese company, they should support the hardware with more Japanese users.  Welcome to the 21st century.  We live in a world of international commerce.  Frankly, your way of thinking is what would run the Tales series into the ground.  The newest title has the flash, the appeal, and the potential to do fantastic.  While you enjoy thumbing your nose at Namco, the rest of us will be playing new games.  By the way, the only next-gen system I own is the Wii.  However, for a Tales game, I'm willing to buy a 360.  I mean, at least it has other fun games I can play when I finish.  I'm with Cless, I'm here to play games.  Frankly, I hope that Microsoft stamps Sony into the ground.  Sony deserves it, and if you really want a system where you can get everything in one place, that's the only way it's going to happen.

[ForceCube]

Oh God, please make ToS:KR be the best game ever and Vesperia be an absolute piece of crap

[Kajitani-Eizan]

i'm not sure i see the relevance of "moneyhatting", because in the end, X360 has good games and PS3 doesn't. simple as that. whether MS used money to pull in titles seems relatively irrelevant to me; it's not like sony is a poor company, either. also, microsoft clearly learned from the last generation, while sony apparently has their heads up their asses all of a sudden. i'm not seeing why your microsoft hate equals it being a bad decision to put ToV on the X360.

additionally, i'm still not getting how making a game multiplatform somehow reduces your userbase. huh? the more consoles a game is on, the more sales you will get -- at least, if you stagger the release dates. i'm sure if they decide to port ToV to PS3 later, PS3 owners would be happy, X360 owners would be happy, and namco would get more sales (hopefully more than how much it took to produce the port). if you mean how ToSKoR and ToV are not on the same system, that is sort of true, but think of it this way:
- previous GC owners perhaps are more likely to get a wii than anything else.
- ToS was a great success in NA.
- ToSKoR might thus be a success on the wii, especially in NA.
- whoever doesn't have a wii doesn't miss out on the next gen, because X360 owners get ToV. perhaps even PS3 owners might get ToV later on.

maybe i'm misunderstanding your argument.

[pedrocasilva]

Are you still upset that you guessed wrong on what system the Tales series was going to?  I don't know how you can still make these arguments.  Your economic statements is based in a bizarre world where there is no such thing as international commerce or game localization.

No, I'm pissed at Namco for letting themselves being moneyhatted like they were with it.

Putting Tales of Vesperia on the 360 makes far more sense then putting it on the PS3. Period.

I disagree a great deal.

PS3 multiplatform with X360? erm, sure ok. X360 exclusive? stupid decision.

You seem to believe that because Bandai Namco is a Japanese company, they should support the hardware with more Japanese users.

No, but when its a JRPG and the third most preominent one in Japan... Releasing it on a consola that doesn't sell and as a exclusive comes out as a bad decision.

Anyway, like I said, I don't root for Sony, but X360 exclusive is stupid.

additionally, i'm still not getting how making a game multiplatform somehow reduces your userbase. huh? the more consoles a game is on, the more sales you will get -- at least, if you stagger the release dates. i'm sure if they decide to port ToV to PS3 later, PS3 owners would be happy, X360 owners would be happy, and namco would get more sales (hopefully more than how much it took to produce the port). if you mean how ToSKoR and ToV are not on the same system, that is sort of true, but think of it this way:
- previous GC owners perhaps are more likely to get a wii than anything else.
- ToS was a great success in NA.
- ToSKoR might thus be a success on the wii, especially in NA.
- whoever doesn't have a wii doesn't miss out on the next gen, because X360 owners get ToV. perhaps even PS3 owners might get ToV later on.

maybe i'm misunderstanding your argument.

You're misunderstanding partially; I'm not saying multiplatform doesn't make sense; I'm saying that, going by their arguments, they argued it wasn't worth it last gen. If they want to go multiplatform... go ahead, with Vesperia on X360 that's what they should be doing from the start.

Still, Tales of Vesperia is exclusive for now, so, it's not multiplatform, if they port it later on, they'll have work they could avoid had it been multiplatform, like it's still happening with Eternal Sonata actually.

My problem with ToS2 is not that too; it's more on the lines, that it's a cheap title meant for the quick cash-in, lacking overworld, lacking new places, re-using old assets, a trainee team and well... a spin-off. I can't help but be pissed at the fact that I'm getting a second rate game while X360, a console that doesn't sell in Japan, whose moneyhatted RPG's haven't sold through the roof and all that, is getting the real deal like Vesperia. It just doesn't settle; it would for PS3 and the argument "we started before PS3 launched and thinking it would lead" and it sells good, not great on Japan nevertheless; X360 exclusive? no way.

I'm not a second rate client and Tales fan, neither are the guys at Playstation who bought Tales actually, be it in Japan or US.

Bottom line is... they make pretty stupid decision for their userbase. (not the ones who have all 3 consoles, but the ones who only have one, only can afford one, or going for the masses and "real" installed base)

[Kajitani-Eizan]

so if it wasn't worth it last gen, going from the popular RPG system of the gen (PS2) to one that might do a crapload better in america (GC), why would they do it this gen? they'd want to release for X360 (popular RPG system of this gen, amazingly enough), see how it does, then determine whether it's worth porting to PS3 (one that might do somewhat better in japan). they basically just switched focii from japan-only to considering both countries together. also, keep in mind X360 has been around a lot longer, and they probably started development well before PS3 was even out. it's not like they've said they'd never release a PS3 version, right? same with eternal sonata, iirc.

additionally, if you can only afford or only feel like getting one console, it likely isn't PS3. so i'm not seeing how that argument jives. other than MGS and the FF13 series that's out in like, 2015, there's not a whole lot of appeal anyway, and what appeal is there is still forthcoming.

the only argument i can really see is feeling like you got shafted as a wii-only owner, which i can sympathize with. but keep in mind it's not often that namco releases full-fledged sequels to tales games; it seems like this is meant to be almost a sequel, rather than just a spinoff, and it's for a next-gen console instead of a portable. i think they'll be putting a decent amount of effort into it so it can live up to its predecessor.