The problem with the series...not just a simple "ad" problem.

[Cless Aileron]

While I'm still a fan of her, I could use the Captain Obvious joke right now.

Truthfully, this is the most frustrating moment in the fandom I have felt.

I have no clue what other forums/sites that isn't Tales related you're on and if the series has ever been brought up for you there.  To put it this way, I find myself lurking on a couple of gaming forums now and then (and sometimes poke into Kotaku).  I have heard plenty of comments about how Tales is "nothing special."

Another example was the entry on Kotaku asking if Patty was removed from the 360 Tales of Vesperia.  I found one comment someone made in a reply there and it hits real hard about why others don't care about the series:

"You can't more generic than Tales."

This is pretty much the perspective so many people share and I have only seen so few praises.  This really emphasize how western RPGs have taken over the genre.  JRPGs are nothing special anymore and Tales goes and proves that.

I could probably say Atelier Iris is a lot more generic but I haven't really seen it milked out like Tales has been (yearly installments bit with a bunch of other stuff while we're at it) so that's how Atelier Iris gets out of jail for being generic (and I have played Atelier Iris and I felt that feeling).

Yeah, this whole Tales is generic stuff feels so obvious with hearing all that complaint about the series' genericness so many times (explains why I needed that Captain Obvious joke).  It does not really give a good word of mouth (and I thought that was the whole idea behind that Tales Brigade thing.  Word of mouth advertising.  Hard to really give a good word of mouth when so many others, the one that matters, find that it's nothing special).

I really am still a fan of the series but critically, I have a hard time convincing myself the series doesn't need that same kind of drastic change that Resident Evil 4 had.  The fandom is just a niche but so is anime and that industry has some serious struggling going on in North America for reason I'm not going to explain right now (especially considering the forum this site deals with is something similar and may sound too sensitive for it and would not be the place for it).  Besides, the point would be the niche may not be enough for support.

While I'm at it, I forgot there's something I wanted to reply to and it does go with this frustration:

If something works, it works, right? I mean, looks at the James Bond series, running twenty-something installments strong, and yet each and every one is practically the same. Sometimes they mix things up, but the core of what makes Bond "Bond" (stunts, gadgets, intrigue, ridiculous world domination plots, hot chicks, etc.) is pretty much preserved. And yet, no matter how mediocre or awesome it turns out, people always go to see the new Bond movie. Why? Because they embrace the tropes. It's like entertainment comfort food.

To me, Tales is like Bond. I know what to expect, and that's why I like it. There's something to be said for consistency, and I find the Tales franchise to be consistent. I would prefer it to remain that way, or if it must, change while preserving the stuff that makes it what it is (real-time combat, Sakuraba-style music, anime art-style, fairy tale setting).

No hard feelings, spaceworlder.  I truly do what you're trying to say but I look over to my Blu Ray copy of Casino Royale and remembered that this 2006 movie is a reboot to the franchise.  You did describe what a typical James Bond movie is like and, while my experience with Bond were mostly the Brosnan Bond (though I know references with other films), I know that's how it works.  However, I also know the reboot at least toned down the stuff you mention of a Bond movie (tempted to say, "The stuff the three Austin Powers movie spoofed) and probably due to the Bourne trilogy, the reboot made Bond more grounded to Earth.  Bond was colder, not many outrageous gadgets, and scoring with women didn't seem like top priority.  It was also trying to be closer to what Ian Fleming's original Bond novel was like.  Only thing that felt consistent from other Bond movies being Judi Dench was still M (which, I admit, isn't saying much).  Oh yeah, Daniel Craig as Bond was more about Bond's coldness, not ladies' man Bond.

I know people say that, "If it's not broken, don't fix it."  It can work for at least 2 sequels but that can lead to the series degrading in quality, leading to, "If it's not broken, just be warned you may need to fix it later."  Bond may have popularity and twenty plus movies to say (quoting Boris from Goldeneye), "I am invincible!"  But Casino Royale and its reboot did show that even Bond isn't invincible (even if he unlocked the hardest cheat to unlock in N64 Goldeneye).

To put it this way, people (mostly along with critics) push for innovation and that they are tired of the same derivative stuff, and this is the one that stands out so much (Remember my post where I talk like one of those hot shots?).

To end this post, with my referencing about true innovation/originality = better survival and the niche may not give enough support, I just like to ask if there's any good justification in keeping the same "genericness" of the series?

[Joseph]

On James Bond:

I think the recent 007 reboot is a perfect example of how change can be good or bad. Casino Royale worked because it reinvigorated the franchise's identity without completely losing track of what Bond is about. I mean, we're still talking about a movie where the British Secret Service sends an agent on a mission to win a poker game. It just seems less ridiculous because the tone is more contemporary.

On the other hand, Quantum of Solace received tepid critical response and failed to outdo Casino Royale in box office and DVD sales. I haven't seen the movie, but the impression I got from critics was it went too far in the Bourne direction, and that stripping Quantum of the franchise tropes essentially rendered it a generic action movie. Even Daniel Craig is talking about moving away from that direction and re-introducing familiar elements like Q and Moneypenny.

On a similar note, while RE5 is reeling in the big bucks, (time will tell if it surpasses the sales roof set by RE2 though) it's hard to deny that it isn't quite the fan and critical favorite that RE4 was. Nearly two games into this new direction, and Capcom's already talking about rebooting the series with part six. Having played the game, I think they took a good thing too far. It's so caught up in being a third-person shooter that it hardly feels like Resident Evil anymore.

So my point here is that "re-invention" can makes things better, but it can also be taken too far. That's a lesson I've been taking to hear this past week, re-visiting the old-school REs and kind of wishing that Capcom would bring some of that goodness back.

[Mutated]

Don't want to revive this thread, but I hafta throw some things here:

First, most of the "facts" the OP mentioned aren't factual (the whole battle system of SO is deeper, unique, Tri-ace is god level), these are pure opinions, some are based on freaking Kotaku's comments, the SO series degrades when it comes to SO3, and the whole thing fails flat in SO4, (and yeah, Tri-ace messed it up, very badly). You have to wonder why SO series is more and more less popular than Tales of, considering the stuff you say about Tales of being a generic, shallow, unoriginal series that no one but otaku nerds ala niche audience play. Star Ocean is the same sh!t, and the later storyline of SO4 is so bad I don't want to mention it.

I personally find it's laughable that people find Fallout 3's story more original than Tales of Vesperia, it's like saying Apple is more delicious than Orange, the storyline of FO3 is generic American hero movie out there, and it's forced, the side characters are forced (with no actual development than lol "we're just tagging with the MC"), the ending is forced to the point of annoyance, it's not like the past FO at all, the free-roaming and the side-quests saved that game, not the storyline.  The storyline of Vesperia  is generic-anime-cliched--and-super-stale, but oh boy if it isn't enjoyable, the characters are rather well-developed and motivated, in fact, I want more of traditonal stuffs, less pretentious "sh!t" on the plot  and more on the character development, the skits are also a nice addition to the story.  

Mass Effect on other hand, I must concur, we need more stuffs like Mass Effect (and the Witcher). I'm not so sure about western RPG dominating the "market", you mean the western market, considering JRPG runs strong in...Japan/the East, in fact, ToV single handly raised the sale of X60 in Japan for months when it's released.

RE4 is also an example of how you are not doing a good sequel, RE4 is a good game, but it's not a good RE game by any sense. What is a RE game? It's a survival horror game. What is RE4? An action game. That's the difference. No ammo limitation, no sucky control to limit the player, you can BUY guns, you feel like an action hero in that game, which is always a big nay to the whole "survival horror" genre. Oh well, at last we still got the creepy atmosphere and cheap scare sometimes, and the gameplay is very good. RE5 falls into the action genre even more, with the fricking forced co-op. Are these games even RE anymore? Innovations are damn fine, but you gotta keep the root of the series. I still wonder to this day why Capcom didn't make RE4-RE5 to be a different series to begin with, it's such a drastic change compared to the old series why bother? I mean, didn't they create Devil May Cry and Onimusha based on failed RE4 concept? So why couldn't we get "Shootan Hero 1" and "Shootan Hero 2" instead of RE4 and RE5? And if RE4 and RE5 are so successful (awards everywhere I know) and well-received, why Capcom want to reboot the series so bad? Because as we know, the storyline sucks so bad in RE5 that they can't continue, so they have to start the whole thing again. Typical.

I'd like to point out that the best RE (IMO) is Re Remake, which is an updated version of RE1, same gameplay with superb graphic and more plotline added. The long awaited Street Fighter 4, after all these years, goes back to tradition. Megaman, another popular series by Capcom is also staying in the tradition (Battle Network and Star Force aside). Not only CAPCOM, but the most popular RPG series in Japan, surpassing even Final Fantasy in popularity, Dragon Quest series, is also staying in tradition. We can also count stuffs like Pokemon. So why can't Tales of stay like that? I don't need this series to become mainstream like Final Fantasy (but isn't it already mainstream? It's the third most popular RPG series right after Dragon Quest and FF).  Call it generic Megaman/Tales of/Street Fighter/Dragon Quest #YZXRP, and you will still find people playing it.

Also, the FFXII's plot is not a nice example of how you do politic in RPG (in my very humble opinion), unlike its premise, the politic thing is just the background, it's very subtle, it doesn't affect the game, it's a prime example of "all talk but no work". And follow that super political intrigued story is a super bland cast with almost no motivation and  personalities (Balthier, Basch are interesting, the rest is meh, and Vaan, why is he even there?). Compares those with the Vesperia cast (which is also a teenager bunch with a dog and an old man), I say I prefer the Vesperia cast, at least I can relate and interact with them better via skits.

The ad of Tales of is a problem yes, but just leave Bamco to their job, controversies like the Persona 3 commercial is fine and unusual (with the whole "shooting gun-like device to the head to summon Personae"), but I don't think Tales of should take that approach, no, Tales is a light-hearted series, I don't want to see the series's image being ravaged by these "grimdark emo" stuffs.

P.S About Tales of space adventure, didn't we already have the Xenosaga trilogy for that?

[Cless Aileron]

While I wanted to comment earlier (and before this recent topic revival), I figure I should do it now but I'm not going to cover everything.  And here comes mean-spirited CA!

First, most of the "facts" the OP mentioned aren't factual (the whole battle system of SO is deeper, unique, Tri-ace is god level), these are pure opinions, some are based on freaking Kotaku's comments, the SO series degrades when it comes to SO3, and the whole thing fails flat in SO4, (and yeah, Tri-ace messed it up, very badly). You have to wonder why SO series is more and more less popular than Tales of, considering the stuff you say about Tales of being a generic, shallow, unoriginal series that no one but otaku nerds ala niche audience play. Star Ocean is the same sh!t, and the later storyline of SO4 is so bad I don't want to mention it.

Let me put this way...they've been releasing 10 Tales games a year and they constantly lack innovation!  Yet Star Ocean only has 4 main installments, one spin-off, and 2 remakes (okay, one is more of a port) that it's less noticeable.

However, I hear others treat Tales of the Abyss as if it isn't derivative.

(P.S.  I call bull on previous statement, just so you know.  Yes, it's part of...you know.)

I personally find it's laughable that people find Fallout 3's story more original than Tales of Vesperia, it's like saying Apple is more delicious than Orange, the storyline of FO3 is generic American hero movie out there, and it's forced, the side characters are forced (with no actual development than lol "we're just tagging with the MC"), the ending is forced to the point of annoyance, it's not like the past FO at all, the free-roaming and the side-quests saved that game, not the storyline.  The storyline of Vesperia  is generic-anime-cliched--and-super-stale, but oh boy if it isn't enjoyable, the characters are rather well-developed and motivated, in fact, I want more of traditonal stuffs, less pretentious "sh!t" on the plot  and more on the character development, the skits are also a nice addition to the story.

The thing about it is that there's too many fantasy RPG.  That's a big reason Fallout 3 is being so worshipped.  The post-nuclear apocalypse was more refreshing than another fantasy setting.  May not be the most original but it's still more original than Tales will ever be.

Mass Effect on other hand, I must concur, we need more stuffs like Mass Effect (and the Witcher). I'm not so sure about western RPG dominating the "market", you mean the western market, considering JRPG runs strong in...Japan/the East, in fact, ToV single handly raised the sale of X60 in Japan for months when it's released.

Okay, this calls for an explanation.

I've been reading news stuff of gaming alongside the economy and the gaming industry in Japan isn't what it use to be (what I remember with that was about low birth rate there and something else I don't remember right now).  Combine that with the western market leaving towards more the western stuff rather than the Japanese stuff and the western market is pretty much "the" market these days (not all of it but it is a big portion).  I mean, this is what Capcom had noticed early on.  This is why they jumped on supporting the Xbox 360 and I like to consider their two early 360 releases, Dead Rising and Lost Planet, as test games for the western market to get an idea of what they'll like.  Also, Square Enix has been doing their own thing in getting a better grip of the western market.  Few things from that, they are publishing the sequel to an RTS game, Supreme Commander, and they have ownership of Eidos (which is funny, considering Eidos did publish the PC version of Final Fantasy VII).  Namco Bandai knows this but they still have some work cut out for them (Does Tekken 6 going to Xbox 360 help?).

Oh yeah, just because Japan had a case of bizarro world-ness, doesn't mean the 360 is in a better position.  Even today, the 360 is still behind the PS3 between the two HD systems.

I mean, why else is Tales of Vesperia getting a PS3 port with so much more new content that we need to feel like complete fools for buying Tales of Vesperia on the Xbox 360 and *insert typical Micro$oft bashing here...as if I didn't get a sarcastic head start on it*.  Heck, a Tales of Symphonia spin off did better than Tales of Vesperia, despite the "it sucks" reception from so many people (but wouldn't help much anyway).

Oh yeah, Final Fantasy XIII is exclusive to PS3...in Japan only.  That says a lot for the Xbox 360's position in Japan.

RE4 is also an example of how you are not doing a good sequel, RE4 is a good game, but it's not a good RE game by any sense. What is a RE game? It's a survival horror game. What is RE4? An action game. That's the difference. No ammo limitation, no sucky control to limit the player, you can BUY guns, you feel like an action hero in that game, which is always a big nay to the whole "survival horror" genre. Oh well, at last we still got the creepy atmosphere and cheap scare sometimes, and the gameplay is very good. RE5 falls into the action genre even more, with the fricking forced co-op. Are these games even RE anymore? Innovations are damn fine, but you gotta keep the root of the series. I still wonder to this day why Capcom didn't make RE4-RE5 to be a different series to begin with, it's such a drastic change compared to the old series why bother? I mean, didn't they create Devil May Cry and Onimusha based on failed RE4 concept? So why couldn't we get "Shootan Hero 1" and "Shootan Hero 2" instead of RE4 and RE5? And if RE4 and RE5 are so successful (awards everywhere I know) and well-received, why Capcom want to reboot the series so bad? Because as we know, the storyline sucks so bad in RE5 that they can't continue, so they have to start the whole thing again. Typical.

Oh boy!  If I had a dime for every time I heard this one, I'd have so much money I'd be swimming in a vault of money like Scrooge McDuck does.

Sucky control to limit the player...wait!  My Nintendo 64 version of Resident Evil 2 said hi!  Why?  I am actually aware of an alternate control setting that, apparently, only applies to this particular version of a Resident Evil game.  It's not the infamous tank controls, it's normal controls.  Up makes you go up from your view, not move forward from character's point of view.

The reboot?  The whole Umbrella thing has been done with by the time RE5 is done.  It was one person associated with Umbrella that hasn't been dealt with (Hint:  Chris Redfield lost to him in Code Veronica and would have to go after him some other time).  Also, the tone from their reboot was more like, "We're going to stop this direction while we're ahead."  Besides, the real common complaints about RE5 were bad partner AI and "I can't move and shoot at the same time?  Bull!"

Devil May Cry originally as a RE concept...

Resident Evil 1.5.  This was almost Resident Evil 2 but they went back to the drawing board.  Why?  It was deem too similar to the first one!

What about the hook ghost Resident Evil 4 one?  Mikami certainly didn't feel satisfied with that one that he went back to the drawing board.

Let's put it this way...a Resident Evil having to go back to the drawing board wouldn't be anything new for the development of a RE game.  Obviously, Devil May Cry wasn't satisfying for a Resident Evil game, but they certainly did not want to do what they were doing with Resident Evil.  Same with RE -> Onimusha (apparently).

I'd like to point out that the best RE (IMO) is Re Remake, which is an updated version of RE1, same gameplay with superb graphic and more plotline added. The long awaited Street Fighter 4, after all these years, goes back to tradition. Megaman, another popular series by Capcom is also staying in the tradition (Battle Network and Star Force aside). Not only CAPCOM, but the most popular RPG series in Japan, surpassing even Final Fantasy in popularity, Dragon Quest series, is also staying in tradition. We can also count stuffs like Pokemon. So why can't Tales of stay like that? I don't need this series to become mainstream like Final Fantasy (but isn't it already mainstream? It's the third most popular RPG series right after Dragon Quest and FF).  Call it generic Megaman/Tales of/Street Fighter/Dragon Quest #YZXRP, and you will still find people playing it.

By the time REmake and RE0 came out, it wasn't selling as much as previous installment and was getting stale.  Thus the reinvention.

(P.S.  My sister + her friends mocked me during my high school years, i.e. pre-RE4 for still finding Resident Evil scares scarier than Silent Hill, the real scary game.  Yeah, there's the staleness kicking in and the lesser sales numbers showed before RE4.)

Plenty of traditions are meant to be broken.  I mean, didn't you read posts saying the text boxes in Tales need to go?  It's a common complaint!  (Heck, if I was actually Steven Spielberg I would also say cutscenes also need to go since they pull you out of the gameplay and lose the interactive immersion of the game)

As for Street Fighter IV and Mega Man 9...it only worked because they've (or classic Mega Man) went AWOL for so long.  I mean, 6 classic Mega Man on NES and they looked generic among each other (first three, especially 2, was the one people care about alot).  Let's not get into the countless versions/updates of Street Fighter II that it became a running gag (not even Street Fighter III, the one that really scared off players, was safe from the joke).

The ad of Tales of is a problem yes, but just leave Bamco to their job, controversies like the Persona 3 commercial is fine and unusual (with the whole "shooting gun-like device to the head to summon Personae"), but I don't think Tales of should take that approach, no, Tales is a light-hearted series, I don't want to see the series's image being ravaged by these "grimdark emo" stuffs.

Okay, but wasn't Abyss supposely, "darker" for many and thus helped it get worshipped more or something?

(Uhh...yeah.  I'm not going to continue with this part here).

P.S About Tales of space adventure, didn't we already have the Xenosaga trilogy for that?

Isn't Xenosaga a spiritual prequel to Xenogears? (and just as much significant hate because it doesn't have the greatness of Xenogears)

Okay, there's going to be more since I decided I'm going to get this more wrapped up.  I should warn you next time, my devil's advocate is going to be very extreme (so don't take it personally, since it's still part of the devil's advocate)!

[Joseph]

Do we really need to revive this topic? Because I'm getting sick and tired of this discussion.

I mean, so what if people think that Tales is "generic"? Their freaking loss. And the old-school REs were getting "stale", huh? Well, tell me why I enjoyed replaying Code Veronica more than playing the first few missions of Resident Evil 5. (HINT: It might have something to do with *actual survival elements* and *genuine suspense*.)

You know what? A lot of my all-time favorite RPGs never cracked the Top 10 sales chart, and a lot of my favorite franchises are dead in the water. But, hey, at least they're not being shamelessly milked or "re-invented". (i.e. being turned into hollow shells of their former selves.) One of my worst fears is that Capcom might one day do to "Breath of Fire" what they did to "Bionic Commando" and "Final Fight." ("Re-imagine" it as some gritty, Western-developed game with lots of cursing and washed-out colors and other "gritty" elements. 150k first week sales! G4 Spotlight!) Or worse, what Square's done to "Mana".

I don't know. "Tales of Grace" looks good to me. "Tales of Hearts" seems decent. I enjoyed the heck out of "Vesperia", and apparently so did a lot of other people. "Symphonia" or "Abyss" were generally well-received, and everyone's clamoring for fan-translations of "Destiny 2" and "Rebirth". Aside from "Tempest" and "Legendia" (the latter of which has its share of defenders), I haven't seen any collective backlash at a recent Tales installment, and yet there's some sort of perceived "problem" with the series.

Not enough G4 coverage?

No humongous first week sales to justify even more of those spin-offs and manufactured sequels that the fans are allegedly tired of?
(By the way, if you think Tales Studio is bad now with their multi-tasking, imagine what worldwide sales in the millions would do.)

I just don't know. I'm happy the way things are. As long as Namco keeps making games like Vesperia, and as long as they keep being localized, I don't see anything to complain about. And even if Namco decides to pull the plug on Tales overseas, so what? One of two things will happen:

1) Namco may finally cave in and hand over the franchise to someone like XSEED.

2) When the time is right, someone will do a fan translation.

Well, that concludes my latest contribution to "An Inconvenient Truth: Tales Edition". Now if you don't mind, I'm going to return to enjoying "Tales of Vesperia", which, according to anecdotal internet testimony, is "stale" and "generic".

*shrugs*

[dragurd]

They already did it with Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter. I'm actually kind of disappointed that they series seems dead at this point as there seems to be no motivation to develop another one.

[Cless Aileron]

Look, I'll stop now.

Even though I'll stop this topic now and stop playing devil's advocate, I already know this complaint about the lack of innovation and originality is still going to be attempted to be hammered into not only my head but all of yours, no matter the media.  Like trying to get us to go back to what it was like in the 8-bit/16-bit, where "Innovation/Originality was the rule, not the exception."  Or trying to make us feel like crap because we didn't support Okami (AKA the game that bombed and shoved in our face to show what's really wrong with the industry), or...

You know what?  I'll cut it off right there.  Otherwise, I'll be referencing some film that's a harsh allegory about what's wrong with a certain creative media (the one that Tales is highly associated with, even if it's a gaming series).

Since this forum allows the topic creator to close their own topic, I'll have this close and hopefully never brought up again.