Tales of Symphonia : Knight of Ratatosk coming to US

[Cyllya]

and that Fujishima didn't do the Character's Artwork "due to lack of time", but somehow got time to do so on Vesperia's.

Stop saying this like it's a bad thing! Fujishima's character designs suck. All the nice character designs in ToS were sub-characters by Okumura or other staff. I swear they must only hire him to get his name on the box so the fans of his graphic novels will buy the game, but since they've already have enough for that, why put more crap in the game?

But, regardless, do we know Vesperia was started in Summer 06? Seems like it'd be a bit before that if it is Team Symphonia, whose previous game was released at the end of 05.

[Cless]

But, regardless, do we know Vesperia was started in Summer 06? Seems like it'd be a bit before that if it is Team Symphonia, whose previous game was released at the end of 05.

The trailer pretty much suggested that Vesperia was Team Symphonia's next big game, I thought. It didn't say Team Symphonia outright, but it did mention Symphonia and Abyss being previous projects by either the team or key staff.

Anyway, if Sakaguchi can move 100-200k units of NEW IP RPGs on the 360, who says they can't duplicate or exceed those numbers with a popular, established franchise?

[pedrocasilva]

Don't really see the rape there. (Rather the other way around.)

Given that the leading platform has a recycled game with no effort and X360 gets a full blown next Tales game for no good reason... I do.

But as a side note, 360 localization is going strong it seems (Namco seems to be a front runner when it comes to doing it on their own). So I don't think it's unlikely that Vesperia will show up in English.  And I bet Nintendo is taking part of the bill for Symphonia, which would be good in all possible ways.

I think there's no question about that, they would have to be completly dumb to make it Japan only on X360.

And as for the development time, it is a pretty good time for something that is heavily based around recycled assets.
If international sales can make up for that, then it's not much of a concern at all. Besides, most of Namco's 360 titles have had some solid sales back home in Japan for being on a platform people have labeled a failure.

Does that warant a Tales game though? Eternal Sonata sold so good, that it would be better to release it on PS3 first.

As for the artwork thing, most of the character designs in general were already there and the new characters don't exactly stand out as much different from the previous characters. Doing character design work is more than just sitting down for 5min and doodling something on a paper and giving it to the person who ordered it and if Fujishima didn't have the time I'm fairly certain the alternative was picked on some sort of recommendation.

It still shows what the main project is though "he was not available" is no excuse.

Stop saying this like it's a bad thing! Fujishima's character designs suck. All the nice character designs in ToS were sub-characters by Okumura or other staff. I swear they must only hire him to get his name on the box so the fans of his graphic novels will buy the game, but since they've already have enough for that, why put more crap in the game?

Given that Fujishima (or other guest illustrators) star in each Tales game, and is doing artwork for another game, yes I do find it important. I do find from it what the real priorities are.

Not because of he being great or anything like that, but the value it has, this tales just sounds like a copy-paste, rehash, recycled game, and I do not like that (despite the fact that they have my money already)

The trailer pretty much suggested that Vesperia was Team Symphonia's next big game, I thought. It didn't say Team Symphonia outright, but it did mention Symphonia and Abyss being previous projects by either the team or key staff.

I didn't get that vibe (thought it had the same director but not team); still I was pissed I mean, how come recycling a game for Wii is ok, but for X360 they go the full extra mile to have detailed shadows and other stuff?

I get it, if they didn't people would complain, thing is, I haven't seen anything there that Wii can't do (taking HD aside, the towns were barren even), yet... there's no effort whatsoever on the Wii version, infact, they're using their previously unheard of Team-B.

Anyway, if Sakaguchi can move 100-200k units of NEW IP RPGs on the 360, who says they can't duplicate or exceed those numbers with a popular, established franchise?

First party efforts no less, who get a lot of funding and publicity. Eternal Sonata by it's turn sold 80.000 units. And that, for the game that it is... Is a flop; on the Wii it would be regarded as so, and then the media would accuse it of not selling third party titles (or "Real" games for that matter) Double standards on the industry, I say.

Hell, they can do whatever games they want on X360, but they shouldn't be doing a Tales game with Team Symphonia while using a crappy team on the console that is leading. It's almost if the Wii project is to pay off the X360's higher budget; since it'll most likely sell worse. Trust me, I'd a lot happier if this, at least was a Team Symphonia game.

And even if it does sell, it's like... they're getting the better game, if Wii had the better one and sold less then we could talk about that; but it's like they are deliberately funding the system who sells less. Moneyhats ftw, I guess.

[throughhim413]

I have this policy to judge games once them come out and I play them rather than painting the world in broad strokes.  Right now all you can do is throw around baseless rhetoric.  Why not wait and see what you're given before you condemn it?  Most of the things you mention are trivial facts that have little to no impact on the final product.  Where Namco spends their money is up to them.  If you hate their decisions so much, there's only one way to tell them - don't buy their products.  Since you're already set on buying it, you have no way to complain.  Thus, here you are, on the internet, making it seem like the sky is falling over a game that has yet to be released.

[pedrocasilva]

I have this policy to judge games once them come out and I play them rather than painting the world in broad strokes.  Right now all you can do is throw around baseless rhetoric.  Why not wait and see what you're given before you condemn it?  Most of the things you mention are trivial facts that have little to no impact on the final product.  Where Namco spends their money is up to them.  If you hate their decisions so much, there's only one way to tell them - don't buy their products.  Since you're already set on buying it, you have no way to complain.  Thus, here you are, on the internet, making it seem like the sky is falling over a game that has yet to be released.

It's not baseless, it's exactly what it is looking at who is working on it and whose twisted priorities Namco actually has; at most we could say that, "if" wii wasn't selling, it would be even more half assed, but that's a given.

Now, I can agree that it'll probably still be a good game and all, I'd have to praise them, if they managed to crap out the gameplay given that they're using a existing engine with good gameplay.

but that doesn't make it not being half assed... it's written all over it; It wouldn't be so bad, if this was the only home console Tales being done or so; but given the situation... it's really a third rate attempt on a leading platform; talk about getting the short end of a stick.

[throughhim413]

But none of this should be surprising.  This is what you should've assumed from the beginning.  This game is not a flagship title.  It's a spin-off.  Compare this game to other spin-offs in the Tales series.  Summoner's Lineage?  Narikiri Dungeon?  Compared to those, this game is getting a ton of attention and dedicated effort.  You're trying to say that this game is being half-assed, but from the very beginning, it's getting MORE effort than one should expect from it.  Rather than assuming that this game is being discarded, you should realize how much is being done for it.

[pedrocasilva]

But none of this should be surprising.  This is what you should've assumed from the beginning.  This game is not a flagship title.  It's a spin-off.  Compare this game to other spin-offs in the Tales series.  Summoner's Lineage?  Narikiri Dungeon?  Compared to those, this game is getting a ton of attention and dedicated effort.  You're trying to say that this game is being half-assed, but from the very beginning, it's getting MORE effort than one should expect from it.  Rather than assuming that this game is being discarded, you should realize how much is being done for it.

They've shown a roadmap last spring that pointed DS and Wii as the main platforms though, so I assumed this was the only Tales game coming to home consoles so: "it's better than nothing and must have Team Symphonia on it"

Given that Wii is leading... Is it too much to ask for effort and ambitious projects? Apparently it isn't too much to ask for platforms who are third in the Japanese console race.

They don't even show effort in the graphics.

Also, regarding for example Tales of Destiny 2, they didn't form a Team-B for it; it's only logical that this should be in Team Symphonia's care, it would make it a lot more acceptable too.

[throughhim413]

You ignored my fundamental argument.  You want effort and an ambitous project?  Wonderful.  But you should have already realized that this wasn't it.  This is a spin-off fanservice project.  It's a matter of common sense that it wouldn't get the A-team.  It's not a main series title.  Tales of Destiny 2 is a main title.  Apples and oranges.

If this were a main entry in the Tales series, your arguments would hold water.  However, that's not the case and it never was.  You need to look at this game as what it is instead of what you want it to be.  At some point, there may be a main entry on the Wii.  The DS already has one.  But we're not there yet, so you'll just have to wait.

[pedrocasilva]

You ignored my fundamental argument.  You want effort and an ambitous project?  Wonderful.  But you should have already realized that this wasn't it.  This is a spin-off fanservice project.  It's a matter of common sense that it wouldn't get the A-team.  It's not a main series title.  Tales of Destiny 2 is a main title.  Apples and oranges.

Not intentionally, sorry.

But if we are going there, then why does Wii get the spin-off and X360 the main project?

When they unveiled it I though this was better than nothing, but every time they reveal more about it I find out how their priorities really are, and this game is a total backburner going after easy money to pay off another game that'll most likely sell less; and that's a shame, it could be so much better.

Should I be happy at it? I don't think so; and I still think this is pretty comparable to ToD2; it's ToS2 after all, perhaps a little more spin-off'ish but a sequel nonetheless, a sequel years after with new main characters. (yet somehow ToD character designer was available for ToD2 while ToS one wasn't for the sequel)

If this were a main entry in the Tales series, your arguments would hold water.

Still holds in the sense that... how come the X360 has the main entry instead? I mean, even eternal sonata, when ToS got to US it sold more than half million, Eternal Sonata sold less than 150.000 units in US.

However, that's not the case and it never was.  You need to look at this game as what it is instead of what you want it to be.  At some point, there may be a main entry on the Wii.  The DS already has one.  But we're not there yet, so you'll just have to wait.

Right, and I seriously hope there will, but right now, I have the short end of the stick for no good reason.

Even if it was PS3 I'd understand a little better, I mean, it's where most tales games have been, but looking at this... it's depressing, and then developers complain for not selling on the Wii.

I'll be buying ToS2 because I'm a tales fan, but talk about being screwed over.

It's not only Team Symphonia matter you know, it's everything, it's obvious the point and click navigation is because they didn't want to make a new overworld map (I bet Vesperia will have one), using detailed shadows would be simple as hell, but they didn't; the character models don't even have detailed mouths; I mean... it's obvious they aren't exactly trying to really use the hardware or take advantage of it.

Like you said, that would be mandatory in a main installment like Vesperia, but then I still don't get how X360 get's the biggest, more ambitious investment. ToS2 for it's positioning and platform it's in, should do a better job of keeping us satisfied with having only that, just like PS2 did with Tales games, actually.

[throughhim413]

My mistake.  I was under the impression that you wanted to have a discussion based on fact.  I don't have time to correct all the logical fallacies here, so I'm just going to step out.  I'll just say that you need to stop looking at games like a personal service and start seeing them as a business.  They're saving money by not buying expensive character designs or having an exhaustive development process.  And they're still getting your money.  That makes THEM the brilliant ones and (if what you say were true) the consumer is being played as a fool.

This is a spin-off.  That's a fact.  All of the things that follow should be common sense, but you refuse to see them.  Thus why I'm done discussing this with you.

[Cless]

What I'm trying to understand is, why does it matter? As a gamer, I don't really give a damn about platform.

If anything, I'm glad Vesperia is a PS360 game because of the controller issue. Seeing KoR's controls, the remote+nunchuck setup doesn't lend itself well to the 3D battle systems in the series. EDIT: And I'm not too big a fan of the 3D battle systems on handhelds, either.

[pedrocasilva]

My mistake.  I was under the impression that you wanted to have a discussion based on fact.  I don't have time to correct all the logical fallacies here, so I'm just going to step out.  I'll just say that you need to stop looking at games like a personal service and start seeing them as a business.  They're saving money by not buying expensive character designs or having an exhaustive development process.  And they're still getting your money.  That makes THEM the brilliant ones and (if what you say were true) the consumer is being played as a fool.

This is a spin-off.  That's a fact.  All of the things that follow should be common sense, but you refuse to see them.  Thus why I'm done discussing this with you.

Fair enough, to be honest I just feel screwed over, and think I'm right in feeling so, since I expected more and better from Namco. I had to buy a PS1 for tales games, same for PS2 later on; and it was ok that they got tales main games, because they were leading... But now when my choice console is leading I get a spin-off and X360 get's a main installment.

I'll even say that I find that Bandai Namco was bad intentioned; I'm sure Vesperia was in development back in spring 2007 but they still showed a roadmap with DS and Wii getting the spotlight, they also hyped it before as the only Tales game being done on home platforms since Tales of Innocence was now the main installment and DS the main platform.

Yes, it's a spin-off, then again I think I deserved more, and all that.

If I knew Vesperia was coming back then and all the conditions involved, It would be so hard to swallow now; because Namco made this one feel like their only home tales game in forseeable future.

Also the Vesperia unveilment, why do you think they didn't say the platform? it was a trojan horse for everyone equating the possibility of being a game for their platform; yet, they'd have no reason to do so in Japan if it was Wii or PS3. It's almost if they're playing with us.

What I'm trying to understand is, why does it matter? As a gamer, I don't really give a damn about platform.

If anything, I'm glad Vesperia is a PS360 game because of the controller issue. Seeing KoR's controls, the remote+nunchuck setup doesn't lend itself well to the 3D battle systems in the series. EDIT: And I'm not too big a fan of the 3D battle systems on handhelds, either.

I do, it does matter for me, if anything because I don't have a X360; and not only that, but it's hard to accept for me as a decision based solely on userbase and sales; because that's what always driven the market prior.

So, I'm guily of expecting more, I expected that given that Wii was in PS2 position it would have PS2 RPG's, or at least some... with effort and ambition.

I was the first guy defending Devil May Cry 4 should come to X360 too for example, because it was a game that would sell good in there and all, there was already a userbase for it and all, but I don't defend stuff like Eternal Sonata on X360, or rumors like FFXIII on it, comes out as stupid for me and only viable if it was a real cheap/cross platform port.

A platform is made of it's games that by it's turn can dictate the userbase, and really, these third party's accuse Wii of being casual instead of doing killer-apps and opt for spin-offs to main games? If anything they're the ones who want it to be casual.

Who'd prefer a recycled game made with a team b next to a new installment of the same franchise, if they only could have one? thing is... I don't understand why I'm getting the short end of the stick.

[ForceCube]

You're giving too much importance to the fact that it's a spin off, but you forget that it's a sequel to a NGC game. And a game that was extremely popular among NGC owners. And, given the fact that most people who owned a NGC probably upgraded to a Wii, it's kinda obvious why the Wii got the ToS spin-off and not the X360.

Anyway, if I had a Wii or had plans to buy one, I wouldn't give a damn if it was a spin-off or not. I'd wait until it was released to see if the gameplay was good and the characters were interesting, and if they weren't, then I'd be pissed off.

By the way, am I the only one who loved KoR's character designs and thinks they're better than anything Fujishima could ever do? ._.

[pedrocasilva]

You're giving too much importance to the fact that it's a spin off, but you forget that it's a sequel to a NGC game. And a game that was extremely popular among NGC owners. And, given the fact that most people who owned a NGC probably upgraded to a Wii, it's kinda obvious why the Wii got the ToS spin-off and not the X360.

Sure, but given that ToS is the best selling Tales game outside Japan and that Wii is leading now... would it be expected that they'd put more effort into it? I mean, more effort than other games in the same franchise in other platforms?

That or stay on PS3 due to "we've been doing games for sony and we'll stick with it" it would still be more understandable than X360.

Anyway, if I had a Wii or had plans to buy one, I wouldn't give a damn if it was a spin-off or not. I'd wait until it was released to see if the gameplay was good and the characters were interesting, and if they weren't, then I'd be pissed off.

Sure, but if you had to choose betwen ToS-spin-off and ToV I bet which one you'd chose.

This would be more acceptable if at least it felt like a priority or like it had lots of effort, but it doesn't.

By the way, am I the only one who loved KoR's character designs and thinks they're better than anything Fujishima could ever do? ._.

Honestly... Emil seems kinda bland for me; this said some other Tales characters are too.

I wouldn't look at this not knowing and say "wow, fujishima was really inspired", no. This said I wouldn't look at ToP, ToS or TotA and say that either.

[ForceCube]

Sure, but given that ToS is the best selling Tales game outside Japan and that Wii is leading now... would it be expected that they'd put more effort into it? I mean, more effort than other games in the same franchise in other platforms?

You can't know how much effort is being put in it before it's released.

I mean, you can know the graphics are bad (or at least worse than Vesperia's), but coming from a Wii game, that's kind of expected. i mean, you didn't buy a Wii because the graphics impressed you, did you?

That, and the fact that it doesn't have a real-time World Map (which is a huge letdown, I have to agree). But you still don't know if the battle system is fun to play with, if the controls are good, if the story is well-planned and interesting, if the new characters are likeable...

What I'm trying to say is, instead of treating KoR as a crappy excuse for a Tales game even before it's release, why don't you just wait and see what happens? Who knows, maybe it surprises you.

That or stay on PS3 due to "we've been doing games for sony and we'll stick with it" it would still be more understandable than X360.Sure, but if you had to choose betwen ToS-spin-off and ToV I bet which one you'd chose.

To tell the truth, I'd probably play both (if I had the chance, of course) and only then I would choose. I wouldn't stick with Vesperia only because it's a Team Symphonia game (I find Team Symphonia waaaay overrated, BTW), and I really don't care about which has better graphics.

This would be more acceptable if at least it felt like a priority or like it had lots of effort, but it doesn't.Honestly... Emil seems kinda bland for me; this said some other Tales characters are too.

I wouldn't look at this not knowing and say "wow, fujishima was really inspired", no. This said I wouldn't look at ToP, ToS or TotA and say that either.

I liked all the revealed characters so far. And this makes me even more interested in KoR than in Vesperia... though I also liked Vesperia's designs more than I did for other Fujishima works.

Too bad it doesn't seem like  the new character designer for KoR will do something about the "spiky hair syndrome" all the main characters in ToS suffered from.

[Carnivol]

But if we are going there, then why does Wii get the spin-off and X360 the main project?

Both are products of "consumer/market demand".
But I guess one team feel more comfortable with doing a title for platform A while the other team feel like they'd be working much better and creating a better product if they worked on platform B.

Sure, but given that ToS is the best selling Tales game outside Japan and that Wii is leading now... would it be expected that they'd put more effort into it? I mean, more effort than other games in the same franchise in other platforms?

What makes you think the Wii title is getting less effort? Is it the recycling of assets? That could mean they have more resources and time on making additional new assets, better executed storytelling, more flawless game system in general and in overall an all together more well put together package.  As for the chances of this most likely not being a full Team Symphonia title (unlike Vesperia that seems to be leaning more in that direction), re-read the answer I gave to the previous quote.