Symphonia / Phantasia continuity error?

[Cless]

So I'm currently reviewing the proofread dialogue for Ary/Early and discussing it with the proofreader.

The original translation says Klarth is Origin's FIRST master. I was thinking maybe there was an interpretation mistake, but Hino Rei is absolutely positive that's how it reads, and can't be interpreted differently.

Unless he's somehow wrong, where does Sheena fit into this? Does Origin not consider her as "master," or was this somehow overlooked when they were writing the Symphonia story? Or is it simply retcon? If that's the case, I have no idea if they fixed it in the GBA or PSP versions.

The dialogue in question:

#137c
// Klarth<HLINE>
// 「Originよ、あなたは時間を越<LINE>
//    えた世界を見せる力を持ってい<LINE>
//    るのではなかったか？」<PAGE>
// Origin<HLINE>
// 「・・・確かにそうしたことも可<LINE>
//    能だ」<PAGE>
// Origin<HLINE>
// 「だが、未来を見ることは許され<LINE>
//    ぬ」<PAGE>
// Klarth<HLINE>
// 「私が見たいのは過去の世界なん<LINE>
//    だが・・・」<PAGE>
// Klarth<HLINE>
// 「どうしても、気がかりなことが<LINE>
//    あってな・・・」<PAGE>
// Origin<HLINE>
// 「・・・・・・」<PAGE>
// Origin<HLINE>
// 「・・・この私の、初めての主の<LINE>
//    願いだ」<PAGE>
// Origin<HLINE>
// 「一度だけならば許そう」<PAGE>
// Klarth<HLINE>
// 「一度だけか・・・」<PAGE>
// Klarth<HLINE>
// 「ああ、それで構わない」<END>
Klarth<HLINE>
Origin. You have the power to show the world across time, do you not?<PAGE>

Origin<HLINE>
...Indeed, that too is possible.<PAGE>

Origin<HLINE>
But it is forbidden to see the future.<PAGE>

Klarth<HLINE>
It's the past that I want to see though...<PAGE>

Klarth<HLINE>
There's something that keeps bothering me...<PAGE>

Origin<HLINE>
......<PAGE>

Origin<HLINE>
...As it is my first master's request, I'll allow it, just once.<PAGE>

Klarth<HLINE>
Just once, huh...?<PAGE>

Klarth<HLINE>
Yeah, that's fine.<END>

[Kogahazan]

The most likely thing is that it was retconned. This is the script from ToP right? They most likely weren't thinking far into Symphonia's story when writing Phantasia's story. I sure wouldn't have.

It'll no doubt be troublesome trying to fit this into the translation and keeping series continuity.

[octarineblues]

// 「・・・この私の、初めての主の<LINE>
//    願いだ」<PAGE>

Well, you could parse that as something more along the lines of "your first request as my master".  It would be a little unusual, as 主の初めての願い would make more sense, but I've seen stuff like this before, and it doesn't necessarily have to be interpreted as "my first master's request".  I suppose it's easier to see if you use parentheses or something:

初めての(主の願い) versus (初めての主)の願い
first (master's request) versus (first master)'s request

[gyozilla]

"the first of my master's wish/request" is another way, if that's what they were going for. That actually mirrors the dual reading, heh.

[Kajitani-Eizan]

it seems like it could be read the way that makes sense if you read it as "the first of my master's wishes/requests [made of me]", which is a stretch if you ask me. but intuitively, it's definitely what you have down, because of the "この私の" at the start. infinitives would have to be split, or participles would have to be dangling, or whatever the applicable grammar faux pas is, for the ToS continuity reading to make sense, imo.

[Team Rocket Elite]

GameFAQs had the English GBA script:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/p...advance/file/582247/47705

Origin does not mention that Claus was his first master.

This walkthrough has a few excerpts from Dejap's SNES patch:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/c...ole/snes/file/588771/8713

It also does not mention that Claus was Origin's first master.

Is this scene different in the PS version? In the GBA and SNES version, Claus says some lines to Arche but he doesn't seem to in the text posted above.

[Cless]

The differences between the SNES/GBA and PSX/PSP scripts are innumerable. They rewrote and added a bunch of stuff. The GBA script is largely based on the SNES one for some reason.

[octarineblues]

it seems like it could be read the way that makes sense if you read it as "the first of my master's wishes/requests [made of me]", which is a stretch if you ask me. but intuitively, it's definitely what you have down, because of the "この私の" at the start. infinitives would have to be split, or participles would have to be dangling, or whatever the applicable grammar faux pas is, for the ToS continuity reading to make sense, imo.

The second の in the この私の is probably the classical usage of the particle, which was often used as a subject particle instead of が.  This would also explain the otherwise somewhat out of place comma afterwards, and it matches up well with the relatively old-fashioned way Origin speaks.  Gah, I really hate classical Japanese.  So much obnoxious to translate.  Modern Japanese is so much more elegant.  >_<

[UraRenge]

considering the years between the two games, and that I doubt Symphonia was even considered back then, much less a connection between the two, I think we can just chalk this up to our old friend retcon. 

Don't you just love it when the author walks over and says "Ya know that part where it said this? We screwed up, ignore it.  THIS is what it says now."

[Kajitani-Eizan]

The second の in the この私の is probably the classical usage of the particle, which was often used as a subject particle instead of が.  This would also explain the otherwise somewhat out of place comma afterwards, and it matches up well with the relatively old-fashioned way Origin speaks.  Gah, I really hate classical Japanese.  So much obnoxious to translate.  Modern Japanese is so much more elegant.  >_<

even given that, it doesn't really make sense, at least as far as i can tell... like if i just read the line the same, but with a ga instead of that no, it doesn't work.

of course, i don't know jack about classical japanese, so yeah.

[octarineblues]

Were I to translate the whole thing very literally, I'd probably go with something like:

"It is my master's first request of me." with the この私の covering the "of me" portion by specifying the context of the sentence.

That being said, it could very well just be a continuity error.  Also, while I'm relatively decent at reading classical Japanese, it's not really my area of expertise within my field, so it's possible I'm mistaken.  As I said, I really hate classical Japanese.  I'd advise most anyone to avoid it unless they really need it for some reason.  It's ludicrously complicated, especially when it's actual text from several hundred years ago.  Very little kanji, no punctuation, nine verb types instead of four, and about 40 or 50 very, very annoying auxiliary verbs which are used all the time, so you have to know all of them and how to conjugate all of them.  Add onto that the weird kana orthography, with things like 今日 being written as けふ but still pronounced as きょう.  Bleh... more trouble than it's worth.  Mostly useful for samurai movies when they try to be accurate and, personally, for understanding the linguistic changes the language has undergone.  Fascinating, but still quite annoying to wrangle with.

[Cless]

In the case of retcon, I may just have it worded something like "...my master's first wish...". It's not inaccurate given the events if I remember correctly.

But I would still like to know if they updated it in the PSP version. My PSP save is nowhere near this event. Though I could probably dump the PSP script if I really have to...

[Cless]

Egh. Just dumped the text from the PSP version. It's the same. :|

[Kajitani-Eizan]

"It is my master's first request of me." with the この私の covering the "of me" portion by specifying the context of the sentence.

... honestly, i'd say you could probably apply localizer's license here and assume this is what origin means. it's not unreasonable given the sentence, and it certainly makes more sense. it strikes me as unlikely that no one noticed this line during production of the PSP version, if it was meant to be read the other way ("my first master"). especially if that line (or klarth's surrounding lines) is/are voiced... any way to find that out?

[Cyllya]

Well, I don't think it'd be the first ToS/ToP continuity error. (Though the other ones leave more room for explanation.)

I thought Klarth wasn't even Origin's first pactmaker even disregarding Sheena/Yggdrasill. I recall him being involved in Ragnarok. (Granted, it never said he had a master in Ragnarok.)

And maybe I'm not considering the word 主 closely enough here, but is that really what you'd call Sheena (or even Yggy) to Origin anyway?  Thanks to pact rings (I think), Klarth beats the snot out of Spirits and essentially enslaves them, but Sheena had to make a voluntary pact which included a vow she was obligated to stick to or else the pact is broken and the Spirit is free.

Egh. Just dumped the text from the PSP version. It's the same. :|

Are you talking about just this line, or the whole thing? I'd definitely be interested in finding out about any other differences. Some of the dialog with Fenbeast, and to a lesser extent Flambelk, strikes me as something likely to have been changed following ToS. (Is Dirk a closet Fenrir worshipper?!)

[Cless]

Are you talking about just this line, or the whole thing? I'd definitely be interested in finding out about any other differences.

The whole string of dialogue. Aside from what seems to be index codes for the voiced lines I don't see any difference in the text, unless I missed it...

PSP dump:

#13f5
// <$07><$00><$0B><$12>Klarth<LINE>
// 「Originよ、あなたは時間を越<LINE>
// 　えた世界を見せる力を持ってい<LINE>
// 　るのではなかったか？」<PAGE>
// <$07><$00><$0C><$12>Origin<LINE>
// 「・・・確かにそうしたことも可<LINE>
// 　能だ」<PAGE>
// <$07><$00><$0D><$12>Origin<LINE>
// 「だが、未来を見ることは許され<LINE>
// 　ぬ」<PAGE>
// <$07><$00><$0E><$12>Klarth<LINE>
// 「私が見たいのは過去の世界なん<LINE>
// 　だが・・・」<PAGE>
// <$07><$00><$0F><$12>Klarth<LINE>
// 「どうしても、気がかりなことが<LINE>
// 　あってな・・・」<PAGE>
// <$07><$00><$10><$12>Origin<LINE>
// 「・・・・・・」<PAGE>
// <$07><$00><$11><$12>Origin<LINE>
// 「・・・この私の、初めての主の<LINE>
// 　願いだ」<PAGE>
// <$07><$00><$12><$12>Origin<LINE>
// 「一度だけならば許そう」<PAGE>
// <$07><$00><$13><$12>Klarth<LINE>
// 「一度だけか・・・」<PAGE>
// <$07><$00><$14><$12>Klarth<LINE>
// 「ああ、それで構わない」<END>