Revisiting DeJap's ToP SNES patch

[Seejay]

I think tis thread is very informitive. I'd always wondered what the differences were between the two scripts. This helps me (and probably others) understand the plot a bit better. It's always nice to have things cleared up. 

[Osvir]

Actually I have to apologize for my first post I made here. I have to agree that I am awfully intruiged by this and the information that you provided was very insightful. Though it was the way the information was presented that made me less than "irritated" (for lack of better word).

It is also interesting to see what people think about this whole subject. "Should it be that way, or that way?" kind of conversation. I can bet that I would have memorized the irrelevant comment from the boy even if he had said "THIS BAND ROCKS! HELL YEAH!!! *headbang*" which is... basically more towards what he truly is saying rather than the opposite :p

ToP NPCs are often not inconsequential (their text DOES impact the understanding of the story), and once a translator adds plot info to their dialogue, they become consequential if they weren't already. By messing the story up, they're making the age old ritual of NPC interaction less fun for the player.

So the boy who says "This band is good" or "There are so few people listening, I believe they will leave soon" or whatever... that has much to do with the story? There's always a good amount of NPC's that say nothing of real value to the player.

Take that dude on the hill, the one that says he can see the Sacred Tree/Temple. He could say "Ah you found me... damn, don't tell anyone please? I prefer this to be my own secret place. It is the only place where I can feel truly relaxed." or something like that.

Irrelevant Story NPC's could be spiced up, and added to the story. You could add a completely new perspective, something unique and creative. Imagine the boy instead saying "This band is pretty good, I wonder if Dhaos likes music?". That gives a feel to Dhaos, who is he, what does he like and dislike? Is he only a complete jerk? Of course not. The people in Tales of Phantasia must be wondering what kind of person/alien he is.

And to the signature, I would think it would be really fun to see a dialogue from a completely irrelevant NPC "Konichiwa, that means Hello in japanese. But ever since the prophets of Phantasia came down to our planet from unknown spaces and taught us english we have left Japanese behind us." :p

Or something similar...

Back to the quote WAY up there in my post: By taking an irrelevant story NPC and changing the dialogue does not mess up the story. But taking a Story NPC and changing the dialogue messes up the story. I agree with you on that matter. There is ALWAYS a way to enhance a dialogue and make it more interesting and still have the same content and concept, except maybe it is different words.

I personally see 90% of the NPC's as robots in all games. They all basically have the same personality, and hey, I don't blame Namco for that. Imagine giving a personality to ALL NPC's. Not saying it should be done, just that it will take A LOT of time and there's just a little space of dialogue to fill in on most NPC's. But it wouldn't be impossible would it? Anyways, I'm trailing away from the topic. The point is "A dialogue can become a lot more interesting than it already is" and that isn't an individualistic viewpoint "Everybody thinks differently". Then why does so many people play World of Warcraft? (I despise it but I can not blindly not take a generalized viewpoint upon it).

If you can go below standard, you can go above standard. You can be original, and you can be stagnant and conservative. And you can be a conservative original

[Penance]

I actually did very few comparisons with my project (and it wasn't my intention to do so). I was trying to take an angle as just someone who already understood the game's story beneath the translation. I tried to keep nitpicks to a minimum, and mainly stuck with issues. There are far, FAR more I could have made.

I commend DeJap for releasing the patch years ago. They had a lot less info to work with back then than we do today. As I said, it's a shame they're not around and can't go back to fix some of the issues with it.

But if people don't like this thread, I'd be happy to delete it.

It's all fine and dandy that you wanted to tackle the issues of this translation (which I agree is a little strange) but the manner in which you did it was just not very nice.
I mean it wasn't vital for you to make such comments.

Though I must admit... now that you've pointed this stuff out Cless I really want to playthrough it myself XD.

[Datschge]

Hm, the new version of the OP is really dry, the previous politically incorrect version was able to give me quite a few nice laughs.

I think DeJap deserves credit for technically and lingually realizing ToP the way they did considering the circumstances. Back in 2000/2001 those were:
- The ROM translation scene was relatively in its infancy. Many projects were finished just for the sack of them, not to pursue new heights in translations and localization (like Tomato's Mother 3 recently). Heck, even for most commercial games the level for translation/localization was low compared to today.
- DeJap did actually a nifty job at localizing the script, making it fun to read on its own. That they lost sight of consistency even the original barely had was mainly made worse by the subsequent rise of popularity of the whole Aselia timeline. ToP: ND, ToW: SL and ToS were released either during or significantly after the project. Interest in all the possible details and interpretations of ToP likely wouldn't exist in English without the above games as well as the equally significantly later released official ToP GBA translation. And I don't think one can fault them for not taking ToP PSX into account.
- Kangaroo is clearly worse than any intentional or unintentional freedom DeJap took. Lack of QA is a valid excuse for hobby projects. For commercial ones, not so much.

Keeping this in mind I'm still able to laugh with Cless about some of the text, in hindsight. I don't see what's bad about that.

[Kajitani-Eizan]

Take that dude on the hill, the one that says he can see the Sacred Tree/Temple. He could say "Ah you found me... damn, don't tell anyone please? I prefer this to be my own secret place. It is the only place where I can feel truly relaxed." or something like that.

Irrelevant Story NPC's could be spiced up, and added to the story. You could add a completely new perspective, something unique and creative. Imagine the boy instead saying "This band is pretty good, I wonder if Dhaos likes music?". That gives a feel to Dhaos, who is he, what does he like and dislike? Is he only a complete jerk? Of course not. The people in Tales of Phantasia must be wondering what kind of person/alien he is.

And to the signature, I would think it would be really fun to see a dialogue from a completely irrelevant NPC "Konichiwa, that means Hello in japanese. But ever since the prophets of Phantasia came down to our planet from unknown spaces and taught us english we have left Japanese behind us." :p

but now you're just totally making stuff up. and the latter two lines are totally out of place. a localization does make changes that a straight up translation might not, but usually these are changes that the team feels is necessary or at least a good idea to smooth out something awkward, or improve the player's understanding, or whatever. random changes just because you felt like it are not generally included in the scope of this.

whoever will play the end result is expecting to play Tales of Phantasia, not Tales of Phantasia: Phantasian Productions Rewrite.

[Osvir]

whoever will play the end result is expecting to play Tales of Phantasia, not Tales of Phantasia: Phantasian Productions Rewrite.

I am not saying that it is a complete rewrite. I am saying spice, flavour and meat.

1, If a young boy NPC is saying "Hello", does it really matter if he say "Hi" "Yo" "Hey"? Because in the end all 4 of them mean the exact same thing.

2, The young boy says "I like this band, very nice music.", would it be different from "I like this band, very nice music. I wonder if Dhaos likes music?"? Now this does not mean the same thing exactly. But it does not change anything, the story continues, it is not messed up. The only thing we see is an added question. And questions are far from answered in most games. Or in real life. All I am saying is "Give some NPC's some more life" rather than their robotic style that is originally imprinted into them, of course that's only my opinion.

3, An irrelevant NPC that says nothing of importance could fill in one or two gaps in the story of things that might have been previously confusing!

4, Adding in a signature is not changing the game, nor the story. It is their right, and it is not our right to say "You can't do that! You must translate it 100% for OUR sake!! We who sit here and do nothing but wait til you get done so we can abuse your work with our downloaded copies!!".

And I vote 100% for them, I think they should add a signature (be it fun or boring, but I think they should for their own sake) and even if it does sound like I am saying this for my own sake it is NOT. Well a little, I would love to see their signature upon this, or their "tag" or whatever. Because it would be the RIGHT THING TO DO from their view point.

[Demon000]

I think all the editing they've been doing, the check and re-check of the script, the search for inconsistencies, the fixing of those, the fixes/edits of the menus, the battle subtitles, every aesthetic detail, and everything else I may be forgetting right now are more than enough signature. I mean, I'm pretty sure the final result will reflect what Cless wanted from the project and that from my point of view is the signature.

[Kajitani-Eizan]

1, If a young boy NPC is saying "Hello", does it really matter if he say "Hi" "Yo" "Hey"? Because in the end all 4 of them mean the exact same thing.

technically, yes, it does. which one he says should be chosen dependent on the tone of voice they were originally going for, though it's not a huge difference.

but this is slightly different from what you were talking about before. slightly.

2, The young boy says "I like this band, very nice music.", would it be different from "I like this band, very nice music. I wonder if Dhaos likes music?"? Now this does not mean the same thing exactly. But it does not change anything, the story continues, it is not messed up.

what? how is that not different?? by having the young boy ask this question, several things are being implied:
- the boy is aware of dhaos.
- the boy considers dhaos to possibly be a sympathetic character who might possibly like music, instead of an evil overlord tyrant as he has been portrayed thus far.
- the boy has some particular reason to think of dhaos and ponder his aesthetic tastes, despite it seeming to be utterly random and out of place.

then there's the fact that the boy DIDN'T ASK THIS QUESTION, originally. changing it so that he does ask it should have a decently good reason behind it that isn't "because i felt like it on a whim".

3, An irrelevant NPC that says nothing of importance could fill in one or two gaps in the story of things that might have been previously confusing!

if it's just really too confusing, and you're sure you're just clarifying some known information instead of just making crap up, then yes, maybe. your idea of it seems to be way too much, though.

4, Adding in a signature is not changing the game, nor the story. It is their right, and it is not our right to say "You can't do that! You must translate it 100% for OUR sake!! We who sit here and do nothing but wait til you get done so we can abuse your work with our downloaded copies!!".

how is it a translator's RIGHT to "sign" the game? no, it's not. depending on how tastefully it's done, people may not mind at all, but i don't see how it's a right, and especially not THE RIGHT THING TO DO, all caps, underlined. as if NOT "signing" the game is somehow immoral.

[Joseph]

I agree that calling it a "right" is taking things too far, but otherwise I think Osvir makes some good points.

what? how is that not different?? by having the young boy ask this question, several things are being implied:
- the boy is aware of dhaos.
- the boy considers dhaos to possibly be a sympathetic character who might possibly like music, instead of an evil overlord tyrant as he has been portrayed thus far.
- the boy has some particular reason to think of dhaos and ponder his aesthetic tastes, despite it seeming to be utterly random and out of place.

then there's the fact that the boy DIDN'T ASK THIS QUESTION, originally. changing it so that he does ask it should have a decently good reason behind it that isn't "because i felt like it on a whim".

His original point still stands. Whether the boy does or doesn't make a comment on Dhaos doesn't impact the story, only the player's perception of its setting.

[Cless]

I would hope that the "signature" of our project would be a well-written localization of the original dialogue.

The point of a localization is to take the original ideas and express them as clearly and naturally as possible in the target culture. It could require extensive reworking to achieve that, but rarely calls for going beyond that.

I care that the original ideas are being expressed properly and effectively. Occasionally, you can't help yourself and want add some little things, but in my opinion that should be done in moderation and NEVER have any bearing on the story.

I've been going through the in-game testing phase of edit pass 2 of ToP PSX very slowly. I've been looking over the script to hunt down remaining flow problems, trying to carefully analyze each line to find ones that didn't seem awkward at first glance, and also looking for more ways of taking many basic lines and expanding them to be a bit more colorful and interesting, without changing the meaning significantly. It can be done.

A guard (localized):
Translation: "Please do your best!" (GANBATTE KUDASAIIII!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111)
Edit: "Get out there and kick some ass!"

A bored sailor (detail addition):
Translation: "We have nothing but free time lately."
Edit: "We have nothing but free time lately. Not even the deck needs swabbing..."

Another sailor (colored in):
Translation: "This ship is a liner to Alvanista. But I don't know when we're going to depart. Ask the captain."

Edit: "This liner's normally bound for Alvanista, but we're currently stuck here. I haven't a clue when we're going to hit the water again. Maybe the captain would know."

A lot of this stuff might seem pretty normal in the minds of the player. But that's kinda the point. I've actually entertained the thought of releasing a "special" patch containing the script before nusakan, gogs and I got serious about the editing, just so people can see what it was we went through to get the script into its final state. I've kept a copy of it before the main editing phase began.

[Seejay]

It's always nice to play an RPG where the characters actually have "character" about them. The reason I hated the FFV fan translation was because of the boring script. While it was very accurate, it was also a struggle to play through. Can't really complain about it though. It was the first fan translation ever (as far as i'm aware) and without it we would have not experiened such an excellent game until the crappy psx port came about.

I feel the same way about Dejap's translation. I had enormous amounts of fun playing it. Some of the things in the game, while obviously not completely right (you can tell even if you've never played the game, Because come on... it isn't everyday that you hear one of the characters talk about how the female characters might *****), were very entertaining.

The point is... well... at least it was in english, and it was fun to play. Can't say the same about most other fan translations.

[Osvir]

First of all, Cless' explanation right there satisfied me enough (his whole post).

I would hope that the "signature" of our project would be a well-written localization of the original dialogue.

Of course it is! I am only suggesting and imagining it in-game ^^ and I must apologize for my straight forward pushing towards this. On the other hand, do you have to ability to add a line in the credits (or start of the game) kinda "Translated by Phantasian Productions"?

A lot of this stuff might seem pretty normal in the minds of the player. But that's kinda the point. I've actually entertained the thought of releasing a "special" patch containing the script before nusakan, gogs and I got serious about the editing, just so people can see what it was we went through to get the script into its final state. I've kept a copy of it before the main editing phase began.

Oooh, I wanna see I wanna see :p :p Nah but enough joking, those edits were much needed. Looking forward to it. I suppose that's the "spice" I am talking about, I am just exaggerating it in my posts (read further down).

what? how is that not different?? by having the young boy ask this question, several things are being implied:
- the boy is aware of dhaos.
- the boy considers dhaos to possibly be a sympathetic character who might possibly like music, instead of an evil overlord tyrant as he has been portrayed thus far.
- the boy has some particular reason to think of dhaos and ponder his aesthetic tastes, despite it seeming to be utterly random and out of place.

then there's the fact that the boy DIDN'T ASK THIS QUESTION, originally. changing it so that he does ask it should have a decently good reason behind it that isn't "because i felt like it on a whim".

1, Wait what... I thought everybody was aware of Dhaos?? :/
2, Not "consider" = "wonders" if there is something else than "tyranny" in Dhaos
3, How can it be random and out of place? It is normal to question, wonder and think. And making it less random, he is currently listening to music which gives a connection to both music and Dhaos. Why does it give connection to Dhaos? Because he is obviously the tyrant that threatens the world. Yet again one reason why people would think and wonder about him. They aren't oblivious to the fact that he exist.
4, Of course. He didn't ask the question. But from my previous reasoning, why wouldn't he? Now I'm talking about the character himself, not the actual original dialogue. Coming in here as an actor and director (on this board) I myself am wondering.

if it's just really too confusing, and you're sure you're just clarifying some known information instead of just making crap up, then yes, maybe. your idea of it seems to be way too much, though.

I always exaggerate. I apologize for that. But through many theatre classes and courses I have learned "Always exaggerate chaoticly, then calm down into a relaxed state", a scream in practice may very well become a whisper on stage.

how is it a translator's RIGHT to "sign" the game? no, it's not. depending on how tastefully it's done, people may not mind at all, but i don't see how it's a right, and especially not THE RIGHT THING TO DO, all caps, underlined. as if NOT "signing" the game is somehow immoral.

Sorry, I meant to say "It is their right because they are translating the god damn thing". Be it immoral, moral or right or wrong in the end. In the end it is only their choice and thusly it is their right to do it if they wish to. And when they have done it or not we can't say sqwat about it because it was their choice whatever they did. To be honest I am only discussing their right to do it, not that they should do it. Though I think they should do it :p