In regards to the Tales of Destiny PS2 remake, who thinks... (SPOILERS)

[Kogahazan]

(maybe it's a clone, or a robot, or a doppleganger, or something.)

Robots. It has to be a robot, can't beat that.

[Stahn Ailron]

Robots. It has to be a robot, can't beat that.

Giant Robot Leon! Fight Godzilla as a secret fight!

Nothing beat's THAT!

[Sword-Breaker]

Although that was an ending.
It really was just a spoof and was prolly not intended in the first place :p

The game was made as it was and lion was intended to be killed eventually.

I don't see why he should live on? it would ruin the plot completly.

I don't see it ruining the plot THAT much, (maybe the sequal but I don't care for it that much) his death is NEVER metioned by anyone outside the party, and even still the characters have trouble determining whether he is dead, they kind of just assume that he is.  Eh, grade shop bonus would be weird (but I'm okay with it), I did read that they would change the story (more depths and new dialogue) and make different scenarios along with the main one, which I assume is the original.
By the way, Lion was not intended to be killed off, he was intended to be a "choice character" like Shadow in FF6.  They rushed the game and didn't get to add the feature.  Now with this game they can either pretend like they never wanted to add that, or go ahead and add it.  They did something similar for ToS Kratos/Zelos did people complain? No.  I just don't really see them not putting it in. If they give characters more attacks and personal skills, that would make it even more vital to give us a choice because there would be no time to use all of his abilities, plus we can probably control him through player one in this game.
I just say make it EXTREMLY HARD to figure out how to save him on your own, to keep first timers from spoiling the original game.

[Cless Aileron]

I'll say it right now.  The whole reason the Zelos/Kratos thing worked out was because the paths were hardly any different.  After killing Zelos in the Kratos path, it was pretty much one skit saying, "Goodbye, Zelos" and then went on with the story.  The rest of the dialogue was pretty much 90% the same and the ending just didn't have Zelos in the ending.  Not even a scene where they mourn Zelos.  Seriously, it didn't feel that different.

However, there is too much importance in Leon's death.  Since there's a sequel that pretty much drives the point that Leon died.  Not only that, Miktran brought Leon back to life to mess with the party (and Leon really showed some zombie-like colors).

Leon is suppose to be dead.  It should stay that way within Tales of Destiny's story.  Besides, how did you know Leon was not intended to be killed?  Tales of Destiny may have been rushed but I don't even think that was one of the things that was rushed.  If they really want to allow a playable Leon, make them buy it from the grade shop and not get in the way of the main plot.  Don't make up some ridiculous plot that pretty much creates more plothole between the two games.

What's next?  There's actually a Final Fantasy 7 remake and people actually demand a way to revive Aerith?  Somehow, this is going to make me sound similar to a Star Wars fanboy going on about how George Lucas messed with the original trilogy and ruined it.

[Stahn Ailron]

There's actually a Final Fantasy 7 remake and people actually demand a way to revive Aerith?

What are you talking about? There already IS a way to revive Aerith! We just haven't found it yet, even though we searched the games coding and everything! Sqaure just hates us!


Okay, and this would be me quitting that act.

On topic, I still stand by what I said about Grade shop or bonus dungeon.

[Kuresu]

Grade bonus is fine with me, as long as the story stays the same.
The game would be too wierd with leon being "alive" after his "death".

[Chuc]

How about a Tales of Destiny 2-2, people?

[Cyllya]

I'll say it right now.  The whole reason the Zelos/Kratos thing worked out was because the paths were hardly any different.  After killing Zelos in the Kratos path, it was pretty much one skit saying, "Goodbye, Zelos" and then went on with the story.  The rest of the dialogue was pretty much 90% the same and the ending just didn't have Zelos in the ending.  Not even a scene where they mourn Zelos.  Seriously, it didn't feel that different.

Even the various plot branches that don't differ in who dies are more different than that....

But focusing specifically on Zelos's death or lack thereof, the desicion alone is incredibly important to his characterization. The one thing that affected Zelos's final decision in the end was whether Lloyd expressed trust or distrust for him, because that implies different degrees of affection, and Zelos is the sort of person who really hinges on that sort of thing.

But that isn't apparent without seeing the different outcomes of that decision. How would Zelos feel if Lloyd professes trust for him? How would Zelos feel if Lloyd didn't trust him? If the game didn't let you see both outcomes of his desicion, you could never know the answer to both of those. You couldn't look at the plot both ways, identify what's different, and realize that's what made the difference to Zelos, that's what was so incredibly important to this character that it formed the foundation of his moral structure and affected his will to live.

Judging by the merchandise and stuff, there is one ending path (the lamest one, unfortunately) that's considered the true cannon ending of ToS, but the possible death of Zelos and all of the other what-if?s in the plot are still necessary to show you the big picture, e.g. why everything happens the way it does.

Like I said, I think ToD was originally intended to have a branching plotline. If that's true, it means they planned a bigger picture than what we were shown. I don't have a detailed enough understanding of ToD's plot to know for sure what has room for explantion, but some possibilities might be... What would it take to make Leon live through that? What happens if he does? Is everyone willing to let him back on the team? Is he willing to go back on the team? How does his presence effect later events? How's he get along with everyone after that? And it's not just about him; Even if everyone is forgiving of Leon, will they necessarily forgive Chaltier, who seemed more geniunely traitorous?

Besides, how did you know Leon was not intended to be killed?

That was a really conspicuous log in that cave....

[Kvar]

His departure from the party was an important plot point, especially for the ending.

Even moreso for the sequel.

[Sword-Breaker]

There were logs and switches in the game that were not in use.  And there is a rumor of an island with a hermit claiming he saved a half drowned boy.  Right after the scene the characters are unsure of his death.  Hacks showed that if you failed to save Lion you could  AT LEAST get Chalteir back.
As I said before, NO ONE outside of the party knows, or metions that Lion is dead.  His death really does not have any signifigance to the ToD story, just the ToD2 story which was not that great to begin with. I don't know if Miktran revived him or made a zombie copy, but it seemed like it was an "extra" fight to me...

NOTE: Today I tried translating some of the Tales Channel info on the game.  They keep implying that there will be more scenarios, but I don't know what it means for sure, also they said it would be more emtional and deep, maybe this time Lion's death will be more signifigant.  I'm not sure what to expect.
I've noticed that they do show areas you can't get to until AFTER Lion's death they even show important boss battle screens, but YOU NEVER see battles AFTER Lion's death which leads me to believe they don't want to spoil the surprise OPTION of having him survive. Heh he gets to use two swords in this game, which makes it obvious that Judas is Lion for people who play these two games in order and are first timmers.

[Cless Aileron]

Maybe you guys are right...actually, you guys are right.  Actually, Cyllya explains the whole thing better instead of just saying "It's vague".  Well, what was getting to me about this whole discussion is messing with canon.  I just didn't like the idea of bringing Leon back within the main plot and creating plotholes.  But I still stand by the idea of having a playable Leon as a grade shop bonus rather than some other method.

[chingi1]

Ugh, the ONE end battle screen I've seen and there is NO grade on there. This means there is no grade or the person did badly and just didnt get any. (Like in ToR. You don't lose grade only earn it.) Now I'm worried.

[Sword-Breaker]

Maybe you guys are right...actually, you guys are right.  Actually, Cyllya explains the whole thing better instead of just saying "It's vague".  Well, what was getting to me about this whole discussion is messing with canon.  I just didn't like the idea of bringing Leon back within the main plot and creating plotholes.  But I still stand by the idea of having a playable Leon as a grade shop bonus rather than some other method.

Sorry about that Cless but Cyllya basically was saying what I was trying to imply, I just didn't think I needed to get that deep,  I haven't seen an end battle screenshot, can someone post it or give a link?
I did notice in the original game, he didn't comment as much as he did earlier in the group, he was the official leader of the group early in the mission but later kind of let Stahn take the lead and only added his two cents when needed which was basically when they journey was getting off track.  IF he is allowed to survive through a second senario, I doubt he will contribute much in the end of the game, maybe add a cynical comment or two during the arguements with the Oberon Corb leaders, give some advice ocassionally, basically turn into Klarth/early Judas...

[chingi1]

Umm, Lilith and the Mighty Kongman didnt add anything really, but they were still there. (Same pretty much goes for Chelsea and Johnny so I pretty much hope they change a lot. This lack of Chelsea HAS to go.)

As for the pic. Its in a scan. Theres a link for it in the middle of pg.5 in the thread w/ the title anouncing all the new tales games for the year.

[Sword-Breaker]

Didn't Chelsea say some things when you where in dycroft?  I know she said something funny in an arguement with the old man in the robot suit

[Kvar]

I don't know if Miktran revived him or made a zombie copy, but it seemed like it was an "extra" fight to me...

Definately revived him. What else could it mean when Rutee says "We need to kill him, for Leon's sake as well."