I really hate saying this but..."The Tales fanbase has been annoying me!"

[Cless Aileron]

Originally, I would response to a few of the things going on in the Tales of Graces topic (like chivalry and all that against feminism), but I want to say something else in regards to all of this "non-localization" stuff.  Probably why I felt this should be a different topic.

Well, in regards to all this, I just want to get this off my chest.  I want to say what's on my mind over all this and 1.  There will be no satire that will go too far.  My thought will be made as clear as possible (except some small sarcasm) and 2.  You will not like what I say but I'm going to say it as calm as possible, no matter how hard that's going to be, because I just want this off my chest.  And this may be somewhat off topic.

First off, yeah, yeah, I get it!  Namco Bandai is run by a bunch of stoopid monkeys.  Stoopid monkeys like this one:

(Note:  I'm intentionally misspelling stupid whenever I'm referencing the "Stoopid monkeys".  It just feels so fitting and where I'm getting my misspelling.)

However, what's killing the series for me isn't some company's stupidity.  It's the fanbase that is killing it for me.

Heck, the fanbase's reaction to RPGamer's April Fools article to a Tales of Graces localization was probably the last straw for me.  Yeah, apparently tricking someone into drinking some spicy Kool Aid is an okay prank, but claiming Tales of Graces is getting a localization is going too far.

I don't know.  Maybe it's because I'm still not getting it through my head that I am actually entitled to Tales games in English and that the customer is always right.  Heck, the entitlement issue bugs me period (like how I'm letting the company screw me over because I bought an update that doesn't have any business being a separate disc release, even if it's $40 instead of $60.  In other words, stuff like Super Street Fighter IV).  Maybe because I'm not complaining enough to realize the company needs to take responsibility and that "The customer is always right."  Who knows.

However, thinking about this, I also have to say this.  While you complain about Namco not releasing Tales games in English, I keep thinking of Tales of Legendia.  I look at it and see that the fans didn't actually want this one localized because they actually wanted Tales of the Abyss.  Also, considering how bad Tales of Legendia came out to be, I also go by the theory that if Tales of Legendia was never released in English, most of the fanbase wouldn't even care.  I mean, would anyone be crying that Tales of Legendia was left behind in Japan?

Thinking about that, we'll probably let the problems with the game get to us.  Vesperia's third act was rushed and was unnecessary (among other things wrong with the story), Tales of Phantasia actually was never that great with its bland cast that lacks character development (and we all know bland characters are never worthy of a fan's worship) and the fanbase is getting tired of a game that's constantly getting remade over and over again and needs to stop, Tales of Symphonia is just as overrated as Final Fantasy VII, and blah blah blah yakkity smackity.  Sounding more like the fanbase is getting sick of the series.

Oh, here I go again, doing what gogs was mentioning in his post in the Tales of Graces topic.

What I'm trying to say is that, "Yeah, yeah, Namco Bandai is run by a bunch of stoopid monkeys."  However, I have other things to worry about other than whenever some idiotic company is releasing every single game in some game series.  It's like the fanbase thinks getting all the Tales games in English is so much more important than protecting the environment or politics.  I'm even to the point of finding myself thinking, "I don't even care if an English Tales game is released ever again."  Thanks alot, fanbase.  You're making me more apathetic to the series.  Heck, I keep feeling like the fanbase I knew is long gone now and questioning if I even realizing my entitlements that I supposedly have or if I even know any better.  You're disappointed.  I get that.  Even then, I can't justify your behavior over all this stuff.  It's like you're ready to fire missiles at the company or something (like when Itagaki talks about how much he hates Tekken).

If anything, Namco Bandai's stupidity isn't what's killing Tales for me.  It's the fanbase.  They're becoming as bad as the Twilight fanbase.  I just want to get that off my chest right now.  Maybe this is what I truly wanted to say last year but was highly decryptive about it and ended up with satire that went too far.  Just be glad I didn't reenact an infamous SNL skit from 1986 involving William Shatner at a Star Trek convention.  I felt so tempted to head that way.  Either way, it's becoming more and more of a headache.
---
(Also, for the record, I actually hate Tales of Legendia these days.  I'm bringing it up because I know people are going to question, "CA, didn't you use to like that game?  Didn't you use to defend this game?"  That's true.  However, my rose-tinted glasses weren't able to protect me from realizing the game wasn't that great.  Heck, even the so-called great story and great character development was just overhyping an underdog.  Overall, Tales of Legendia was actually a highly forgettable game with so little effort.  Heck, I have my gripes with Tales of the Abyss, but at least it has someway of me to remember it and truthfully, I grew to appreciate things about it, even if I think it gets more prop than it deserves.  I'm just saying it now because, apparently, people find it strange that I sudden hate Tales of Legendia now.  I even expect it here, even when it's just an analogy.)

(P.S.  Scamco?  I swore that bashing term came to use because Beautiful Katamari's DLC was actually unlocking keys you had to pay for.  And people say Namco hates money, yet they're scamming us by getting us to buy unlocking keys.  That's more along the scamming line than non-localized titles.  I mean, it is tricking us to pay good money for worthless stuff.)

[Empty_sky]

(P.S.  Scamco?...)

sorry, i didn't know that that was an actual bashing term. i just started calling it that because i thought it was funny when "i thought it up" (that was an actual term? wow...) sorry...

[throughhim413]

You think you have problems with the Tales fanbase? Try translating a game some time. You'd never think it'd be so hard to give people something for free.

On the Legendia issue, I still remember it fondly. I can't play it anymore because the battle system is so bad, but the story was good as were the characters. The localization was solid except for that whole unvoiced second half issue. Kind of a big issue, but the translation was still good, at least. It wasn't my favorite game in the series, but I'm glad it was localized.

Namdai's localization strategy is far from fan-oriented, but I can't really complain. I buy the games when they come out over here and when they don't, I import. They're just another company. If they don't want my money, I can spend it elsewhere. There are plenty of games out there. Plus, there are only a few unlocalized Tales game that I actually feel like we're missing out on. In time, most of them will get fan translations. Tales fans don't have it so bad, really.

[BassForever]

I agree that the Tales fanbase is pretty rabid and stupid. Many of them aren't grateful for anything and are quick to be extremely judgmental. I partially blame Namco for making the fanbase this way though. We spend so much time getting worked up if a game will even be localized that we can't even bother to enjoy the few we get. We've some how found a way to criticize every American release and the "most famous" fan translation.

ToP DeJap: Criticized for it's "we're doing it our way" translation
ToP GBA: Criticized for it's bad translation and slow gameplay
ToP AZT: Everyone considers this the best US version, so I'll just add that most people debate how full of plot holes ToP is and how "stale" the characters are. Nobody complains about AZT actual translation
ToD: Criticized for it's unoriginal plot back when it was first released, and is considered "unplayable" compared to later entries in the series
ToD2/E: Criticized for it's bad voice acting and cut skits (and for it's lack of a US PSP port)
ToS: Considered "over rated"
ToL: See first post
TotA: People whine about Unknown being impossible, game seems to polarize, some love it like ToS and some seem to hate it
ToV: People say the plot was rushed in part 3, gameplay is too easy with how easy it is to infinite things
ToS2: People whine about bad plot, voice acting, gameplay, wii mote controls, etc
TotWRM: People complain about boring gameplay, weak plot, etc

I'm not going to say everyone is wrong with their complaints, and almost every franchise you'll find people who hate/like various games (check out Final Fantasy's rabid fanbase...). The thing is on places with various forums about Tales your opinion will almost always be hammered by people who for w/e reason hate the game you're trying to play/get help with. This leads to debates that go on for hundreds of pages, accomplishing nothing for the same loud mouths who always debate, yet scare off the potential new fans who see the fanbase as too radical for their taste. As I said this feeling isn't helped any by the fact that most English speaking tales fans have no official game to look forward, just fan translations. There is nothing wrong with fan translations, I'm very much looking forward to AZT's ToI patch and I loved the ToH demo by Kaji,  but making the game "official" adds a bit of magic, giving what is basically a starved fan base something to hold onto and look forward to.

[Wildwurger]

I'm probably the odd man out in the fanbase. I don't play ANY Tales game on any difficult besides "Normal", so any balance-related issues that arise from Hard/Mania/Unknown go completely over my head. I do think Legendia was a steaming pile (even moreso now than I did back when it came out). Radiant Mythology 1 suffered from clunky gameplay (in and out of battle), a tiny cast, and grinding that makes MMOs look reasonable (sequel speeds it up by about 40%). The sequel was so much better that I don't CARE that I can't understand the story.

I liked Destiny. I don't think it's unplayable at all, because I was playing it on my PS3 a few months ago and was having a blast. Hell, I probably like it now more than I did back when it first came out (1997?). Is the GBA version of Phantasia the awful one, or is the game really just that clunky regardless of system? I also severely-dislike how Cless is the only one who can take a hit and not die horribly. I never liked that sort of gameplay in an RPG. Maybe Suzu can be the "other side meatshield" when I get ambushed in every single fight (I'm not even kidding).

I don't mind Symphonia. I just look at it as an RPG and Tales game. I guess getting into it much later than everyone else'll do that. I never even went to the Gamefaqs board for it. Symphonia 2 can die in a fire. I don't even really LIKE the Wii outside of being backwards-compatible and old game downloads. But, man...monsters-as-party-members games are probably the last thing I would ever play. The only one I liked was Jade Cocoon 2, and that game sold me hardcore on the fantastic writing.

[LJkAze]

However, what's killing the series for me isn't some company's stupidity.  It's the fanbase that is killing it for me.

Ya I hate the fanbase since day one; now every new frigging release I keep hearing: "This game look awesome omg, what system is it for, first day its announce they ask when is it coming to NA, even though it not release people start saying this game is awesome and its the best tales game ever huh? I don't get that man how can it be awesome when they never played it"

However, thinking about this, I also have to say this.  While you complain about Namco not releasing Tales games in English, I keep thinking of Tales of Legendia.  I look at it and see that the fans didn't actually want this one localized because they actually wanted Tales of the Abyss.  Also, considering how bad Tales of Legendia came out to be, I also go by the theory that if Tales of Legendia was never released in English, most of the fanbase wouldn't even care.  I mean, would anyone be crying that Tales of Legendia was left behind in Japan?

Don't even get me started about Legendia; this game is a piece of art that was quickly in my garbage can in day one j/k. They spend so much time on remaking port why don't they bother to remake this game. The only good thing I like about this game was the music and the story but I can't finish this game because of how crappy the battle system is; aside from the good things this game is frigging bad. No Multiplayer, No World Map, Boring LMBS, Horrible Dub, and one thing that really piss me off the most about Legendia is the rip off Gundam Seed Destiny part where stella dies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXZA8TJC-64&feature=related

Tales of Phantasia actually was never that great with its bland cast that lacks character development (and we all know bland characters are never worthy of a fan's worship)

Bland character development; what do you mean by that? I think ToP or Aselian time line has some sadist character development compare to most tales game. You would have to play TOPND, ND2, ND3, TOWSL, and etc tales game that feature the TOP cast to find out about their development.

We spend so much time getting worked up if a game will even be localized that we can't even bother to enjoy the few we get. We've some how found a way to criticize every American release and the "most famous" fan translation.

I dont care for Tales to come here or not; I not good with Japanese but most of the tales i prefer playing it Japanese because I really hate the localized version. Japanese or not as long its in my hand and get to play it I'm happy.

[Wildwurger]

and one thing that really piss me off the most about Legendia is the rip off Gundam Seed Destiny part where stella dies

Ahahahahah! I wonder if that was intentional. Same voice-actor and all. Also of note is that both Stellas didn't really have to die. It was a case of murdering the hypoteneuse so the hero would end up with the girl who's not really right for him.

(If you want to hear my thoughts on why I disagree with Shinn/Luna and Senel/Shirley, I'm open to PMs.)

[LJkAze]

Radiant Mythology 1 suffered from clunky gameplay (in and out of battle), a tiny cast, and grinding that makes MMOs look reasonable

I still say the Tales of World games they can try for a MMO; ya I know they fail for ToEO MMO but dont give up just because they failed. And the reason for them to fail is because its just too much like ToE and it laggy. But Still TOW has a good concept as doable MMO and I think it'll be successful ^_^ They make about 1-3 tales game per year and they can add to them just like they do with ToW.

Ahahahahah! I wonder if that was intentional. Same voice-actor and all. Also of note is that both Stellas didn't really have to die. It was a case of murdering the hypoteneuse so the hero would end up with the girl who's not really right for him.

I think that was intentional seriously: both same voice actor, same stella thing, and Shin and Senel both went supersaiyan, and yes both Stella shouldn't have died dammit.

[Datschge]

The Tales fan base is pretty much in control of the public opinion of the brand in "the West", which just shows how much of a mess Bandai Namco's handling of it has been so far.

On the other hand I don't think those complaining about the diverse kinds of localizations/translations can really be considered part of the "fan" base. I'm quite sure the "real" fans by now all stopped contributing to the non sequitur (mostly hating it seems) discussions on the "official" boards and prefer to play the Japanese games. I mean why should I be affected by some ominous "fan base"? I just play the games I like (and to me Tales Studio's output has been improving), and I tend to like to voice my opinion on business strategies (or the lack thereof) by diverse game companies if I feel like it.

[Kogahazan]

The Tales fan base is pretty much in control of the public opinion of the brand in "the West", which just shows how much of a mess Bandai Namco's handling of it has been so far.

On the other hand I don't think those complaining about the diverse kinds of localizations/translations can really be considered part of the "fan" base. I'm quite sure the "real" fans by now all stopped contributing to the non sequitur (mostly hating it seems) discussions on the "official" boards and prefer to play the Japanese games. I mean why should I be affected by some ominous "fan base"? I just play the games I like (and to me Tales Studio's output has been improving), and I tend to like to voice my opinion on business strategies (or the lack thereof) by diverse game companies if I feel like it.

Indeed. I pretty much go exclusively here for my Tales forum needs and rarely read the official forums because I feel this forum has a higher ratio of "real" fans that don't bitch all the time.
Admittedly I'm one of those people who started out learning Japanese to play untranslated games, including Tales. However, I know there is more to Japan than anime & games and that learning Japanese shouldn't be for just that. But my real major caught up to me and I haven't progressed too far in Japanese, but I'm sorta glad it did.

I've learned enough where I can enjoy untranslated things at a basic level (like drama cds) and Tales games like to to fall into stereotypical anime dialogue so I have even less problem enjoying them untranslated. Because I haven't learned enough to fully enjoy them, it would be nice if more Tales got localized, but being a "real" fan, I have no qualms playing the Japanese version. But if there's one thing that does annoy me about "real" fans or rather the fanbase in general (but it's not an issue exclusive to the Tales fanbase) are those that think the Japanese dub is inherently, unquestionably, unexceptionally, and undeniably better than the English dub. For example, I've seen a guy who literally has never heard the English Vesperia dub but claimed the Japanese dub is better.

Not to turn this into a dub debate, but haters will hate and selfish people will feel entitled to things. My suggestion is go here to stay away from that part of the fanbase.

[Datschge]

haters will hate and selfish people will feel entitled to things. My suggestion is go here to stay away from that part of the fanbase.

</thread>

[Cless Aileron]

Took me a day to get here to reply because I wanted to make sure my mind was calm and clear for anyone that may not like what I say.

Now, I'm just going to reply to certain comments here.

You think you have problems with the Tales fanbase? Try translating a game some time. You'd never think it'd be so hard to give people something for free.

   I actually forgot I read one entry you wrote on your site in regards to that.

Somehow, I feel the need to insert a certain quote from that reviewer Yahtzee that sums up fans (even though I admit I'm not a big fan of his work).

Namdai's localization strategy is far from fan-oriented, but I can't really complain. I buy the games when they come out over here and when they don't, I import. They're just another company. If they don't want my money, I can spend it elsewhere. There are plenty of games out there. Plus, there are only a few unlocalized Tales game that I actually feel like we're missing out on. In time, most of them will get fan translations. Tales fans don't have it so bad, really.

I usually think that these companies rarely owes us anything.  To some degrees, they owe us a working product.  If I'm a company stockholder, they owe me something.  Other than that, anything else I'm thinking of I think it's one of those, "they don't owe us" things most likely.  That's pretty much how it works for me.

Also, I realize, even back in 2003, we're not that important and they seem more intent on bigger stuff or something.  Besides, it's not like Tales is the only thing I care about from Namco.  I mean, I did buy Tekken 6 last year and I am actually interested in how that Splatterhouse revival game comes out to be (and even rumors that they're including the three classic Splatterhouse games with the first one being the uncensored Japanese arcade version as unlockables.  That's right, it's not DLC.).  Oh yeah, and I do have a Namco arcade complication disc for Xbox 360 that includes their obvious arcade classics (You know, Pac Man and Dig Dug) and obscure ones (considering the forum here, I'm sure Tower of Druaga and Dragon Buster will ring a bell).  So it's not like Tales is the only thing I care about from them.

Bland character development; what do you mean by that? I think ToP or Aselian time line has some sadist character development compare to most tales game. You would have to play TOPND, ND2, ND3, TOWSL, and etc tales game that feature the TOP cast to find out about their development.

First off, I was mainly referencing Tales of Phantasia and Tales of Phantasia alone.  No Narikiri Dungeon.  No Summoner's Lineage.

That out of the way, others have pointed this out with the game (ones without the nostalgia factor and ones that have played it in the past).  There wasn't really much to their development throughout the story.

P.S.  I said that with the rest of my "what other negative things others say about the Tales games" thing.  I don't necessarily share some of them but it's common enough that I have to bring it up in the rant about, "You want it but then you find it has major problems."

Indeed. I pretty much go exclusively here for my Tales forum needs and rarely read the official forums because I feel this forum has a higher ratio of "real" fans that don't bitch all the time.

Not to turn this into a dub debate, but haters will hate and selfish people will feel entitled to things. My suggestion is go here to stay away from that part of the fanbase.

I have to admit, reading the recent posts in Tales of Graces topic, I felt it was getting close to what I feared.  Where we would be complaining about the same things that "those fans" complain about (if anything, I can't read anything on Siliconera with the words, "Namco Bandai" in it without someone doing just that in regards to Tales, even if it's something from Splatterhouse sales expectation or they're distributing Demon's Soul in Europe).

Maybe I was worried that even Phantasian Productions wasn't safe from it anymore (then again, Yetika did mention something about it to me outside of the forums in regards to this stuff, so maybe I admit I panicked and overreacted to the situation).
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I'm probably better off not talking about business strategy and all that.  I mean, I don't have a business degree and these business strategy aren't really absolute.  Then again, it's not my business how Namco does things.  I don't own stock and I don't hold a degree in business.  That's probably another thing that bugs me with the business stuff and all that blah blah blah yakkity smackity.  It's just gotten to the point that it's tiring.

(One more thing.  That random "Stoopid Monkey" picture I linked.  I just felt it was topical enough with the whole stupid company thing that I randomly throw it in there.  That and I really like Robot Chicken and these pics are amusing ways to end the show.)

[wade989]

I would love to see Square-Enix buy out or partner with Tales Studio..

[SlicerSV]

I would love to see Square-Enix buy out or partner with Tales Studio..

Why?  It's not like Squeenix is that much better of a company than Namdai, and they'd probably actually intentionally try to kill the series in favor of their own.

Sure, Squeenix does a pretty decent job of localizing tri-Ace games, but think about it, the most direct competition to the Tales series IS the Star Ocean series.  Do you really think that if both series were being produced by the same company that they would get equal treatment?  They'd probably sacrifice Tales for Star Ocean, Star Ocean's been with them for a lot longer and has typically been more successful on average than Tales has ever been for Namdai.

Also, I think we'd be in for worse dub jobs.  Squeenix might be good at localizing the text, but they tend to choose some extremely annoying voice actors and actresses.  Especially actresses.

Oh, and that brings me to a comment someone else made:

For example, I've seen a guy who literally has never heard the English Vesperia dub but claimed the Japanese dub is better.

Yeah...  he's stupid.  I for one think that the Vesperia dub is one of the best I've heard from any Japanese game in recent memory.  I must admit I've never heard the Japanese, but I never heard the Japanese for any game that has a decent NA localization.  If a localized game has text and dub that match each other and the characters don't feel jarring at all, then I consider it a good dub.  By my metric, Vesperia has one of the best in recent memory.  That doesn't say anything about the quality of the localization, but, to be honest, I'm not disappointed by that in Vesperia either.  "Best in recent memory" on localization?  That'd be far too tough to call, definitely a good one though.

[Joseph]

I'd hate to see any company buy out another.

[BassForever]

I'd love to see Square Enix buy out the Tales franchise from Namco, then we'd get every game in the US