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Author Topic: A few random Phantasia questions  (Read 1302 times)
Sirius9
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« on: August 05, 2009, 07:15:11 PM »

Just a few things I've speculated about from time to time.  I was interested what other people thought.

What is the source of Mint's power?  I seem to recall this being addressed very vaguely in the game, but I may be misremembering.  The anime claims that it's the Yggdrassil, but that doesn't make any sense. 

How does Mint's barrier work exactly?  If it keeps mana from being drained from the tree, how are the Spirits supplied with the mana they need to live?  If I recall correctly the characters are also pretty matter of fact about the barrier making magic disappear at some unspecified time in the future....aren't the elves going to be a bit pissed about that?

Klarth makes pacts with demons from a parallel dimension that seems antagonistic to their own.  This seems like a bad idea for so many reasons but he never gets called out for it, and there don't seem to be any consequences. I've never been able to play ND1 or SL because I can't read Japanese so I was wondering if any consequences of demonic summoning show up in those games.
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Cyllya
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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2009, 09:33:16 AM »

Quote
How does Mint's barrier work exactly?  If it keeps mana from being drained from the tree, how are the Spirits supplied with the mana they need to live?  If I recall correctly the characters are also pretty matter of fact about the barrier making magic disappear at some unspecified time in the future....aren't the elves going to be a bit pissed about that?
Unless it's in a chunk I missed from the script dump, the PS1 version doesn't say anything about magic when they're talking about the barrier. Which version are you going off of?

ミント「これから、ユグドラシルに、マナ流出を防ぐバリアーを張ります」
   Mint: From now on, this barrier will be affixed to Yggdrasil to protect it from mana discharge.
ミント「そうすれば、いつかきっと、大いなる実りが生まれてくるはずです」
   Mint: Then, in time, it will surely produce a Great Seed.
クラース「信念を持って、孤独な戦いを続けたダオスへの・・・」
   Klarth: (I have trouble putting this into words, but it doesn't have anything to do with magic)
クラース「せめてもの、たむけだ・・・」
   Klarth: That's something, at least... (uncertain)
クラース「ミント、やってくれ!」
   Klarth: Do it, Mint!
ミント「はい!」
   Mint: Yes!

http://talesof.cyllya.com/top/script/script020.html

I don't know how the barrier lets magic and spirits work while preventing the overuse of mana by magitechnology. Maybe it's a quota system. It will only let the mana out so fast.

Quote
What is the source of Mint's power?  I seem to recall this being addressed very vaguely in the game, but I may be misremembering.  The anime claims that it's the Yggdrassil, but that doesn't make any sense.

A book in ToP 4202 talks about healing arts (iyashi no jutsu) as some poorly understood thing and suggests that the power comes from either the Earth or God.

ToS says this of the Boltzmann technique, which is implied in this scene to be a sort of proto-houjutsu.

Colette: What kind of person was Master Boltzman?
Raine: He proposed that people have another power inside of their bodies
            in addition to mana.
Lloyd: Another power?
Raine: Yes. The source of healing techniques. He passed away while the
            educational system was still being completed, and even today his
            theory is only partially understood.
Lloyd: Then, eventually they may figure out the rest.
Raine: Yes. Someday...
Colette: That'd be nice.

It also mentions using the unicorn horn or mana herb as a catalyst for something.

Quote
Klarth makes pacts with demons from a parallel dimension that seems antagonistic to their own.  This seems like a bad idea for so many reasons but he never gets called out for it, and there don't seem to be any consequences. I've never been able to play ND1 or SL because I can't read Japanese so I was wondering if any consequences of demonic summoning show up in those games.
Who knows. Some book in ToP did mention this being a "forbidden" or "sealed" art, if I remember right. They were already getting into the world, so I don't think Klarth is making the situation any worse by forming a pact with them. He might even be fixing a potential problem by having control over them.

This would be an interesting plot point, but ND1 and SL punch a bunch of plot holes into it by making them into Spirits! Which is weird, because ToP makes it pretty clear they can't be Spirits, just because they're from Makai and the air in Makai is poisonous to Spirits. But in ND1, Pluto is still the ruler of Makai (ruler of a place he can't be *headsmack*) and Gremlin Lair brags about being evil. I didn't get to those two in SL (I think they were sidequests), but I know they're spirits according to gameplay. You can summon other demons in SL, but I don't think that's ever a plot point. (Unless you count Fulein getting a pact with that one zombie, but he wasn't evil.)

Distantly relevant: Sheena says, "only those of elven blood can call forth Summon Spirits. Not just magic, but also any technique that uses the mana of the natural world requires some elven blood to be flowing through you." Since summoning Spirits is mana-related, this would suggest you don't need elven blood to summon non-Spirit things. I figure Klarth uses pact rings to summon without elven blood (Lloyd gets around a similar limit with a pact ring), but then why would he need them for the demons? Hmm.
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Sirius9
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 07:57:33 PM »

Unless it's in a chunk I missed from the script dump, the PS1 version doesn't say anything about magic when they're talking about the barrier. Which version are you going off of?

The part I'm thinking of is a bit earlier in the dialog.  I'm thinking of the Absolute Zero version:

Quote
Klarth: Even without magitech, humans can go on living just as they did before.
Klarth:  Although it's truly a shame that magic will be lost as well
 
Arche goes on about how Klarth will just "BAM!" come up with something new and cool. Later:

Mint: Once the barrier is cast it will prevent mana from flowing out of the Yggdrassil.

This part in your script dump goes:

Quote
クラース「魔科学なんて無くても、人間は生きていけるさ」
   Klarth: Humans can live without magitechnology.
クラース「魔術が使えなくなってしまうのは、残念だがな・・・」
   Klarth: Too bad about not being able to use magic, but...
アーチェ「なに言ってんの、クラースなら、また何かど~んとすごいことができるってば!」
   Arche: What are you sayin? If it's you, Klarth, you should be able to do something über-cool!(uncertain)

The phrasing there makes it sound more like he means that he's sorry that the promise that magitech had to make magic accessible to humans will be lost, not that magic in general will cease to exist.  Which makes much more sense.  The idea that the party would be okay with letting all those spirits they've gone to so much trouble to make pacts with fade away was always hard for me to swallow.  The whole thing still smacks of "Let's mess with natural forces we don't truly understand!  Because that wasn't what caused this whole mess in the first place..." but at least what they're doing doesn't seem grossly irresponsible to me anymore. 


Quote from: Cyllya
Who knows. Some book in ToP did mention this being a "forbidden" or "sealed" art, if I remember right. They were already getting into the world, so I don't think Klarth is making the situation any worse by forming a pact with them. He might even be fixing a potential problem by having control over them.

I always figured it was sealed for a reason. Smiley  No one seemed too thrilled with the idea of demons being around in DotNW and they're also accompanied by air that's death to Spirits and at least toxic to humans.  They also seem to be evil or at least somewhat predatory towards our heroes' dimension (doesn't Gremlin eat "magical energy", that is, Mana?).  Possibly I'm just influenced by Western tales where a deal with the devil usually has bad results for the humans involved.  Just a thought though, you're probably right that Klarth is keeping their incursion from causing more trouble by controlling them.


Quote from: Cyllya
But in ND1, Pluto is still the ruler of Makai (ruler of a place he can't be *headsmack*)

Yeah...that doesn't make a lot of sense.  Too bad, it seems like they could get some mileage out the possible interactions and alliances between the inhabitants of the differnt dimensions. 

Quote
(Unless you count Fulein getting a pact with that one zombie, but he wasn't evil.)

Kids these days!  They'll summon anything!

Quote
Distantly relevant: Sheena says, "only those of elven blood can call forth Summon Spirits. Not just magic, but also any technique that uses the mana of the natural world requires some elven blood to be flowing through you." Since summoning Spirits is mana-related, this would suggest you don't need elven blood to summon non-Spirit things. I figure Klarth uses pact rings to summon without elven blood (Lloyd gets around a similar limit with a pact ring), but then why would he need them for the demons? Hmm.

I remember that.  I always figured that after all these millenia, every human on Aselia must have an elf in their ancestry somewhere.  The question then becomes just how much elven blood do you need?   If Klarth has some elven blood, it might also explain how he manages to be the Amazing Human Demon Detector (he does this like 3 times, once while completely hung over), although nobody seems to think this ability is odd.  It's also possible that the pact rings are the key, and there's been some advances in summoning lore since Sheena's time that make it possible for humans.  I mean, it's really the Spirits that are using the mana right?  Or maybe Klarth's tattoos have something to do with it. Or maybe Sheena is just mistaken.  But who knows.  You could come up with any number of explanations. Interesting speculation about summoning non mana beings.  Imagine the fun if humans figured out that demons were a lot easier for them to summon and started doing it a lot...
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2009, 09:33:48 PM »

This part in your script dump goes:

The phrasing there makes it sound more like he means that he's sorry that the promise that magitech had to make magic accessible to humans will be lost, not that magic in general will cease to exist.

I remember double checking these lines with Hino Rei some months back. We pretty much came to same conclusion there, and did some editing to make it more clear.

Klarth
We humans can live without the power of magitechnology, but...

Klarth
What a crying shame. It was our only hope of being able to use magic...
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