So, whaddya do?

[Cless]

Well, it's clear there's still some refinement that needs to go into it, but for only 4 days of work, it's unparalleled.

EDIT: I think on day 4, I was still having futile searches at finding anything in the game... damn compression that wouldn't be cracked until over a year later.

[Kajitani-Eizan]

let's keep in mind that you started in, what, 1998? it's now 2007. PSX knowledge has increased, computer speeds make 1998 computers look like wristwatches, emulators/tracers abound, more tools are probably available, etc. etc. then there's the fact that (i assume) this was among your first projects, so you had to learn along the way. i've been following gemini's SotN thread for a while now, and it's clear from that (and the RHDN community translation project that flopped) that he probably already picked up some insane skills and became a superhuman PSX hacking god before he even touched ToP PSX. keep in mind that learning how to do all this stuff is a significant achievement in itself. plus, iirc, you've had team members drop off the face of the planet (linachan? xero?), which couldn't have helped.

so yeah, don't feel bad.

[Kogahazan]

After sleeping on it, I thought it over and feel I was being an ass trying to get my point across. Now that I know you aren't quitting as I had previously, erroneously thought, I must apologize. I didn't take into account how it feels to be in your situation now that I understand what the situation is. I see no further point in trying to convince you that there are just some people with a superhuman talent for these things as that has been said by others now. I can only offer my sympathies and congratulations that Gemini is at least considering helping.

[gyozilla]

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
Ignore the oneupsmanship overtones; if you succeed in accomphlishing your goals, that is perfection.

[Cless]

Y'know, as the years have gone by,my favored translation style has changed over time.

In the beginning, I was something of a purist. I wanted "Gummy"s (or well, nowadays, if I went with that convention, I'd be calling them Gummis), and I wanted Majinken and Guren. I lambasted and thrashed on Ted Woolsey's original FF6 translation, and even wrote a terrible, embarrassing "FF6 US/Japan differences FAQ" full of stupid largely meaningless engrish nitpicks. (Dear Woolsey: I'm sorry for that atrocity. You were awesome for all the crap you had to put up with at the time).

After maturing a bit, I realized... I don't like that anymore. I played Disgaea. It helped me to appreciate localized humor a hell of a lot more. It's said they had to rewrite over 50% of the million jokes in the game so they'd be still be funny to westerners. It was the creator's intention to make you LAUGH at those scenes, not be bored to death with a liner note that explains "why" it's supposed to funny. If you're wapanese, you'll force yourself to laugh anyway... I did it before. . It also helps however, that they nailed the English voice acting of the main cast in Disgaea, which added so much more oomph to the jokes and overall script. I did not get as much enjoyment out of things after switching Disgaea's language track to Japanese because it did not flow with the english writing in the slightest.

The same could be said of Phoenix Wright. The thing is loaded with jokes and puns.

Finally, we received Tales of Symphonia in the US, a game based in the same universe as Phantasia. This cemented that a "literal" patch just wasn't going to cut it anymore. Symphonia's overall localization quality was many folds better than the previous official Tales' localizations, and then I felt more compelled than ever to start trying to emulate the official style. Thank you for showing me Pineapple Gel, for some reason, it had never occurred to me that THAT was what they were actually aiming for in Japanese (パインアップルグミ wouldn't fit in the original Tales' 8 character-limited item names, so was shortened. Despite having more space in later games, they most likely kept the shortened version for consistency). Plotwise, I now wanted something that attempts to retain whatever continuity exists between Symphonia and Phantasia.

Since then Tales localizations have been incrementally better with every release (if you ignore the abysmal, obviously uncared for ToP GBA slackjob. Legendia loses some points with the lack of voice acting for the entire second half of the game, but it's clear there were some further improvements in all other areas of the localization over Symphonia's).

It has been my experience that some fan translations (not all, mind) take literal translations and attempt to patch up awkwardness on a page by page basis. It  works. It does in many situations. I think a direct approach such as that makes more sense in a translation guide or somesuch for someone playing the game in a foreign language. Other fan translations may be similar to that, but get a bit more liberal and creative, which I like much better than the former for video game hacks and entertainment subtitles.

Of course, generalizations are bad, so I hope I didn't offend anyone with the above paragraph. People have their own ways of doing things, and if they want to do it that way, more power to them. It may not be my preference, but I won't go apeshit if it isn't an official work.

Many of those in the industry attempt to reinterpret the entire thing to retain the soul and feeling in the target language and culture. In this day and age, that I feel, is how it should be done. And that, is precisely why I'm in the process of choosing an English major that specializes in writing to do this project's editing. Our team as it is could easily do an awkwardness patch up without a hitch, but that's not what I want to do with this.

Localization doesn't mean "CHANGE EVERYTHING!". We're not changing Ninjas into Native Americans and changing all the houses in the Ninja Village into teepees or something. Stuff that's distinctly Japanese like that is very much being left alone.

I've really been on the fence with Suzu's techs, having a hard time trying to figure out where exactly to draw the line. Before ToP GBA came out, I was intending to leave hers romanized and sticking a translation into the furigana space, as it tends to be acceptable in localizations to keep Ninja moves untranslated. As it is now, it's the other way around with the GBA version translations as the official name. But as I've said I'm still on the fence.

We're not taking a Working Designs-style approach either. I just want the writing to be what I feel is absolutely top notch and natural.

My god that was a lot more writing than I originally intended. I better stop here.

[throughhim413]

Good points, all of them.  I don't disagree with your way of doing things, Cless.  Jokes should be translated.  In a true game patch, it's unforgivable to leave them untranslated or try to explain them away.  And I apologize if any of my posts over the past few days have been over generalizations.  We've both been high strung recently, so I hope you'll forgive me for any disservice I did to you with what I've said during these times.  I certainly never meant to imply you were going to make ridiculous changes to things, I was just exaggerating to the full extent of what 'localization' could mean.  I just finished a long post myself over on rh.net, so I'm going to cut this one short and sum it up.

I don't think what you're doing is wrong.  I think it's a choice.  What I am doing is also a choice.  In the end, I don't think our choices are going to put us that far apart, but I'm glad that we're both free to chase after our dreams for this game in the way that we believe is best.

[Frogacuda]

I think starting another project is a waste of time, but its their time to waste.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. I know this translation will be fantastic, and that's the only thing that matters. Aesthetically, I prefer this translation, and the idea of playing a game like this with dry literal translations of jokes is not especially appealing to me.

Others might prefer throughhim's approach. And thanks to him, you won't have to deal with their bitching.

[raigan]

I wouldn't go as far to say as it's a waste of time. A lot of people thought it was a waste of time to re-translate FFVI -- but that's a very popular patch. FFIV likewise although a bit more understandable since the original localization was abysmal (like TOP GBA).

My memory may be a bit foggy on the subject, but I remember it being fairly common practice for multiple groups to translate the same game at the same time. Typically the reasons were the apparent lack of progress by one group (more commonly the unannounced death of a group than not) or a different approach to the translation or even (albeit rare) spite.

So to make a long story short (too late): I don't think that what throughhim's group is doing is bad at all. I encourage them, in fact. There are a LOT of people who prefer that style of translation -- just browse the official Tales forums and you'll find plenty of them. Different customers, different patch.

[DemonFang]

Cless's project isn't just a translation - it's a localization. Different people prefer different things (personally I prefer the localization). Cless has also taken into account things like font selection and continuity with Tales of Symphonia, which I think will make it all the better. I'm sure both projects will come out great - I might even try them both. And, of course, like Frogacuda says, now Cless won't have to deal with the bitching of people who prefer it the other way. 

[Kiko]

I'm looking forward to both. Both projects are done in two very different styles. Cless is putting some really sexy touch-ups on the game, but is going with more of an adaptation/localization approach (With Demon Fangs, Apple Gels, and Magic Lens). Meanwhile throughhim is going with a untouched and unchanged direct approach (with Majinkens, Apple Gummys and Spectacles).

Now if only one group could stick with the PSX version, and the other the PSP one, but we can't have it all!

Good luck, both of you.

(I will admit that it's kiiind of bad sportsmanship and in bad taste to create a project someone else has actively put some sweat into for years, but oh well.)

[Dhaos]

It's been a while since the last time that I've posted here... i don't remember, maybe 1999? or 2000?, Back then I choose the nickname time_craymel (Dhaos was taken by another guy... but i can't blame him ) I was the one that once said : "I check everyday this page to see if there is a patch, but nothing is released..." and also the one who once said "whoever who ask me for the iso of this game, I will send him because for me It's impossible to get a copy of this game, and it's really hard to get..." (I know the rules... don't worry about it, besides, is far more easy to obtain a copy of the game thesedays...) then the time passed and my account in the forum was deleted (I think... it was due a database error?), however, I never lost the faith in this page (I don't have the need to save the url, i just memorized it, and, after every format of my pc, I went to this site...), somehow I knew that the quality that you were archieving was superior that just translating the text...

Thinking about myself like a true Tales of Phantasia fan, and, after thinking for some time, Cless, never stop this work, you have been my hero because you were the one that realized that this game isn't just another game, but, instead... it's THE GAME that show to the entire RPG community, how an RPG can be fun, exciting and really fascinating at the same time (And also you became the first person who were really thinking seriosly in the translation of TOP).

Sorry for the long text... I just... felt very gratefull when i saw the rescent pics of TOP , Thank you for your 9 years of work.

P.D. I'm 20 years old... actually coursing and almost finishing electronical enginering (Sorry for this but... I'm not just another kid ¬_¬U)

[Cyllya]

Y'know, as the years have gone by,my favored translation style has changed over time.

...

Seems like some people take the localization idea too far though. I remember someone (from DeJap I think) insisted DeJap's boat scene was essentially accurate, only changed to be more understandable to us Westerners. When I played ToD2e, I was wondering, "A pot pie consisting of noodles, milk, shrimp, and cheese? What the hell?" before I found out that it had been Gratin in the Japanese version. Tales of Symphonia (which always seemed pretty straightforward to me except for censorship, budget cuts, and what look like mistakes) had a few dumb things that people could tell were messed up without being familiar with the Japanese version. Likewise, but to a greater extent, with plot elements in DeJap ToP.

Does Tales of Phantasia even have any culture-based jokes? (Excluding puns, which have to be changed regardless, and stuff like ninjas, which have to be unchanged regardless.) I guess it's possible every other line was I joke that I totally missed, but... Tales of Phantasia's plot is for telling a story that's just one piece of the history of a world that you can tell has had a whole lot of interesting stories, even if we haven't gotten games that focus on those plots. It's only supposed funny every now and then. Embellishing the English dialogue to the point where it says something different than the original might've been a good idea in Disgaea, but in ToP, it only mucks things up.

The guys who translated Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure mocked purists with an NPC say, "Welcome to [I forget the town's name]. Enjoy the land of snow." But the closest ToP, in Japanese, ever gets to a character saying something like that is a soldier who welcomes you to Alvanista before going on for three text boxes about the country's affirmative action policies compared to the other nations of the world.

I'm just saying, if you're using Tales of Symphonia (or TOL or ToA) as a localization guide, the two translations are going to end up about the same except for item and skill names. XD And PP's translation does have the tech romaji in the menus anyway...

[Kajitani-Eizan]

The guys who translated Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure mocked purists with an NPC say, "Welcome to [I forget the town's name]. Enjoy the land of snow." But the closest ToP, in Japanese, ever gets to a character saying something like that is a soldier who welcomes you to Alvanista before going on for three text boxes about the country's affirmative action policies compared to the other nations of the world.

... i don't get the joke? could you explain?

[Cyllya]

... i don't get the joke? could you explain?

You mean the Rhapsody NPC? Her next text box was something like, "(This is what happens when we do a direct translation.)" i.e. If they do a direct translation, everyone will have icky boring dialogue like that. Just so there's no confusion, I really did forget the town name; that's not part of her quote.

Or if you mean the TOP NPC, there's not a joke there, just plot info (world-building is why TOP is epic). As opposed to something useless like, "Welcome to Alvanista. Enjoy the land of magic."

[Kajitani-Eizan]

oh, haha

i will have to admit, though, it would be pretty realistic to have some NPCs blow you off and/or not be very useful. i mean, if you were the town guard, would you necessarily talk about the history of the world or something with every passerby that wants to chat with you? i'd think something like "Welcome to Alvanista. Enjoy your visit." would be quite natural.

"Enjoy the land of snow", though... ugh

[LenaAndreia]

 I've been following this for a long, long time. Since about 2002 when I learned that there was a ToP PSX version (Yeah, I was late to the party). I've watched team members vanish over and over, and always Cless still manages to trudge along, making progress. The fact he's stuck with it this long is amazing.

  Is it wrong for him to have throughhim413 to have his own project? Not really. The internet is about freedom, after all. And I do feel bad that he's sort of catching heat for it. However, I can understand why Cless was upset after working so hard.

 Just remember this though, Cless--the journey itself is more important than the destination. You've learned a lot along the way, and have built a pretty loyal fanbase--two things that don't really accompany speed. XD

 BTW--this is Celera... I guess my old account got deleted. I picked a good day to pop in.