Oh, right... names.

[Cyllya]

Cless, there was some ToP stuff we needed to know what you were going to call....

Let's see...

*kinda sorta meant to post this topic a long time ago and has forgotten half the stuff*

アミィ
ミラルド
Tre(a)nt
法術(士)
ローンヴァレイ
魔界 (Please don't say Hell. I recommend "the Abyss" but anything other than Hell will do.)

I think that was everything...

[throughhim413]

I'm pretty sure that most of these we talked about at some point.

Mirald
Treant

Lone Valley
Daemonium (if we're going with Symphonia standards)

I'm not sure about Houjutsu(shi) though or if we're going with Ami or Amy.  But I'm pretty sure the rest I read/saw/asked about at some point.  Maybe I'm just making things up though.  Still, it's best to have confirmation, so I'm glad you're asking.

[Cyllya]

Symphonia didn't use any 魔界. ToP-GBA did, but Cless goes back and forth on coinciding with ToP-GBA. (Houjutsu is the most evil word. I liked Kaji's joke about Methodism, but people would misunderstand that for a similar reason as "Lifeless Being")

Oh, also need two other things:

-Clay Idol or Gnomelette? (ToS used the latter, but maybe that's in there with Rheaird and Torent Forest...)

-The exact words of the "kono yo ni aku..." thing. Can I ask you to keep ND1 in mind while picking the wording for that? I think it's supposed to mean different things each time but that it's important to be the exact same phrase, like Dhaos has realized the real meaning (i.e. it refers to everyone, himself and Mel and Dio too) to what he'd said a long time ago (originally thinking "people" as in "humans" or as in "most people who aren't me").

[Kajitani-Eizan]

houjutsu can mean gunnery. i suggest "Gun Skill".

... actually, Divine Power isn't bad. something related to "divine", or maybe "nature"/the natural order of things, but more along the lines of a method, an art, a way of doing things, etc. might be better though. Divine Arts? Divine Craft? something along the lines of Charter, or Covenant? The Way?

... The Method...?

[gogs]

Symphonia didn't use any 魔界.

wait, did i understand that right, doesn't 魔界ニブルヘイム count?
and maybe sword dancers are secretly from there?

-Clay Idol or Gnomelette? (ToS used the latter, but maybe that's in there with Rheaird and Torent Forest...)

ToS aside, Gnomelette (omelette) seems more englishsized and cute, Clay Idol sounds scarier. It would, however, go along with the other Clay guys - Clay Golem, Clay Demon - unless those are getting new names too.

I'm hoping FenBeast is changed (applies to ToP PS1 too).

[Kajitani-Eizan]

thread necromancy ftw!

so uh, for "that" project, i'm wondering... what do you think is best for "houjutsu"? some options:

- Divine Power (from the GBA "translation")
- Healing Artes? just Healing Arts?
- Harmonic Artes? (just like Fonic Artes!) this one pertains to that idea of the order of things, the way of nature, the circle of life from the lion king, or something like that.
- Life Artes? Vital Artes? veiguely along the same lines as above...

[gogs]

Divine Power reminds me of the Hugo/Kronos/Clemente spell... >.>;
Divine Artes? I'd personally use something with Cleric(al), cause thats how I relate the stuff back to Carole Adnade.
Maybe Clerical Order as opposed to Clerical Artes?

[throughhim413]

I'm using Support Magic for my patch, or at least that's what I've been using up to now.  Occasionally I refer to it as Healing Magic, but fundamentally, it's the support aspect that I see as being important in most cases and it's broad enough that it fits most situations.

[Cless]

Maybe Clerical Order as opposed to Clerical Artes?

I think I like this suggestion the most by far.

[Cyllya]

Bad thing about calling it healing artes and such is that houjutsu seems to involve more than healing. Cless and Mint first time traveled by houjutsu, and it just sounds damned weird for them to say they were sent somewhere by healing artes. It's like saying you drove your medicine to work.

Also, when the term used for Something incorporates a word that people already have outside knowledge about, the audience makes assumptions about the Something based on the term, and sometimes they will cling fervently to those assumptions even when the story proves them wrong. (Go to a ToS message board and ask what a Lifeless Being is.) This is my problem with anything involving "magic" or "divine" for houjutsu.

Clerical Artes would be nice, I guess, along with other terms involving "cleric." Even though houjutsu doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with actually clergy, Mint's titles are all religious (Christian, English) terms even though she doesn't actually seem to be affiliated with a church, so I guess a clergy theme was kind of what the creators wanted with houjutsu-related terminology. o.O

I still like the Method though. (even though houjutsu=Methodist potentially has the above-mentioned Lifeless Beings effect)

Maybe Clerical Order as opposed to Clerical Artes?

Is it an order??

[Cless]

Clerical Artes would be nice, I guess, along with other terms involving "cleric." Even though houjutsu doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with actually clergy, Mint's titles are all religious (Christian, English) terms even though she doesn't actually seem to be affiliated with a church, so I guess a clergy theme was kind of what the creators wanted with houjutsu-related terminology. o.O

Don't forget that huge holy cross on her chest. And that smaller one on her umm... hat thing.

[throughhim413]

Of course houjutsu involves more than healing, that's why I said I had changed it to support magic.  Healing, status effects, teleportation, all of it falls under the category of support magic.  Of course, you make a valid point that houjutsu isn't magic at all... If it were, it would have disappeared along with the Spirits and sorcery when the Yggdrasil withered away in ToP's original timeline.

Is it an order??

They do have an organized group of some kind.  I mean, at least to the point that they talk about it being founded in 4210. 

[gogs]

Cyl, I guess you've suggested it yourself. Mint's titles and Adnades being the genial line of houjutsushi (passing down of the hat and mana earrings) is as much "evidence" of some sort of "order" as you can get, or that line of thought.

But the point was whether we wanna use Clerical. As long as you're using that term, it implies order. Whether we wanna emphasize erroneously is another story :p

the audience makes assumptions about the Something based on the term, and sometimes they will cling fervently to those assumptions even when the story proves them wrong.

I just let it go. I mean, you gotta. There's only so far we can take a term before it breaks. And you know every term is gonna have some implication that comes with it, for better or worse. I'm usually the one stressing word choice around here anyway :p

The way I see it, there's a thin line between
1) using a common word that's so generic it's no longer a special term, and
2) a term that's way too specialized that it no longer has wiggle room for its own interpretation in the game (the effect you said). Millenium Reign and Methodism to me fall somewhere near 2, "magic" and I guess "divine" are 1. Cleric is less specialized than Methodism, and we've been using that term since forever! (discussions about Trinix's power, first finding out the 4210 line added to ToP PSX...)

If anyone wanted a term that's not as "sect related" (Cleric, Methodism) so it wouldn't suggest an order or group, we've also called it Prayer based arts before. But again, that word's got its own baggage to deal with.

What I'm concerned with is settling the terms for both houjutsu and mahou together. It's crazy to me to have houjutsu be a semi-specialized term and mahou be like good 'o "magic" or something. Whatever happens, I think they need to be balanced, either both totally generic or specialized. Yes, the plot treats mahou as something that's common to the world already (being recognized way earlier) so a more generic term might make sense, but still it should be able to hold its own when it's treated like a term in dialogue.

They do have an organized group of some kind.  I mean, at least to the point that they talk about it being founded in 4210.

(The practice of) houjutsu was officially established on or after 4210. The order is speculative, I guess.

*shrug* Personally, support magic would be what I call all of Mint's spells that aren't healing or curative. Support is really vague and the way it's used itself is subjective. Anything helping Cless can be support magic. And if support is used to mean helping the main chara, how does it hold up if I use Mint as the main?

[throughhim413]

*shrug* Personally, support magic would be what I call all of Mint's spells that aren't healing or curative. Support is really vague and the way it's used itself is subjective. Anything helping Cless can be support magic. And if support is used to mean helping the main chara, how does it hold up if I use Mint as the main?

I think it holds up rather well.  The implication is not that it supports a single person, but that the magic is not offensive in nature.  Its primary function is to provide backup for a person/party; that is, to "support" them in battle.  The one time where I agree that the term breaks down is if Mint is alone.  It would be kind of strange to see be using "support magic" on oneself, but by its very nature, the concept of houjutsu is that it is not meant to be a lone class.  I also view healing healing spells as part of "support".  It's something that keeps the party going.

Well, I myself have come to use 'sorcery' for mahou often times, so I'm comfortable with how the terms break down in my translation, I was just offering some thoughts here.

[Kajitani-Eizan]

my issue with that is that they refer to "houjutsu" as almost a plot point of sorts. it's not just a general term for support spells; it's a specific term that specifies the arts that Mint, the present era Morrison, etc. uses. it would be like calling klarth's summons "attack magic".

so then, Clerical Artes? no love for Harmonic Artes, eh 'A`

[gogs]

well my 2 cents: yea, it becomes an "epithet term," describing the attributes and qualities of what the spells do instead of a translation. And also the nature/word origin behind all the houjutsu stuff in the game is mystical/fantasy/holy. That intention would be lost if secularized.

no love for Harmonic Artes, eh 'A`

So you're the fanbase behind Tales sound/music puns? (ToS/ToA/ToHarmonia)
Harmonic/Fonic... Good lord, double entendres like that have already warped my predisposition to the word forever... :p