Progress update and screens for Jan 18th 2009.

[Penance]

You do remember this project wasn't even supposed to be revealed yet (it was supposed to be after Cless's ToP translation was released)? 

I do remember because it's pretty much down to me he revealed it.
"Circumstances pretty much forced it" Cless said.
He didn't have to announce the project just because I ended up starting one, though I guess thats what happens if such things are kept secret.

I'm just hoping for an update because I don't want to see this turn into number 3 on the unreleased PP works.

[throughhim413]

Wow, Penance, that's pretty rude considering that all of your projects are also currently unreleased. As long as work is being done on the projects, what does it really matter if there's a news update or not? Pushing for an update isn't going to help things go any faster.

[Penance]

Tales of Symphonia is complete but wasn't released because nothing could be done about the text issue.
Tales of Destiny: DC was scrapped and wasn't released because YOU and Cless were doing it, and mine would look pretty disgusting next to yours.
Tales of Rebirth hasn't been started on yet.

The difference between mine and Cless' projects is that mine havn't been in progress for 10 years at a time.
And if it's the fact that he's too busy to work on them then what is the point in starting one, not finishing it (Phantasia) then starting another one and not finishing it (Destiny 2) then starting another one and blaming the fact it shouldn't have been announced yet down to me.

I don't care if you think I'm being rude, everyone is entitled to opinions, but I am just completely doubting that any of the three projects will ever get released.
Alls we here is:
 "great news, the script is finished and ready for inserting! This game is so clsoe to completion"
1 year later we havn't heard anything else from it.
Phantasia has been in progress for what.. like 8 years?


I like Cless, i'm not bashing him as a person, so this isn't personal.

[throughhim413]

I have no interest in arguing about something that really doesn't have much to do with me, so I'm just going to say one thing. I would suggest that you withhold judgment on how long a truly complete project takes until you have one yourself. A complete translation requires more than just having text in all the blanks, I'm talking about everything - a refined translation, necessary alterations to menu layouts, and other basic improvements. Someone who has never been involved in a project of that magnitude can't possibly understand everything that goes into it. I'm not blaming you for not having a project like that or saying that you never will, I just don't think you should pass judgment on criteria that you may not fully comprehend.

[Penance]

You're talking about everything that makes a complete translation and gave me two things that do so.
Not all of us have the strength to do that. I can't work with compression and I know jack shit about ASM, text editting is all I can do.
I have no interest in making the translation hack look like Namco has done it because they havn't done it. My translation hack = my way.
Namco make some silly mistakes anyway--infact all localizing companies do.

"Necessary" alterations aren't always necessary though, are they? So no, you don't need to make these alterations for a complete translation.
Refined translation is obviously a must but I've already attempted to do that, I have friends who know Japanese so when I got stuck I requested their help, they guided me along it and then I did what I could with the translation, got another friend who is perfect at English to check it over and that was that.

You can't really say that I shouldn't be passing judgment on a criteria I don't "fully comprehend" because how do you know I can't comprehend it?
Just because I don't have my own website, a forum and fancy customized tools made for each and every game I'm working on doesn't mean I can't comprehend what makes a good translation hack.

I appreciate how gentle you're being with me. It's good that you never seem to fall into arguments, so I apologise if you think I'm having a go at you, it's nothing personal, it's just me replying to things you have said.

[throughhim413]

You can't really say that I shouldn't be passing judgment on a criteria I don't "fully comprehend" because how do you know I can't comprehend it?
Just because I don't have my own website, a forum and fancy customized tools made for each and every game I'm working on doesn't mean I can't comprehend what makes a good translation hack.

I appreciate how gentle you're being with me. It's good that you never seem to fall into arguments, so I apologise if you think I'm having a go at you, it's nothing personal, it's just me replying to things you have said.

No, you're right about that. Perhaps I went too far in saying that it isn't possible for you to comprehend what makes a good hack. Romhacking has never been about having a fancy website or anything like that, so I hope I never implied anything like that. No one starts out as an expert, everyone has to learn. I'm a translator, so I might be speaking in ignorance, but I would encourage you to learn to make tools, learn ASM, learn some of those things that are currently beyond you. I know that you're working on the PS2, so you've got a lot of difficulties ahead of you. You really need to face those issues head-on or you won't be able to improve. The greatest skill for a romhacker is being able to march into uncharted territory and play with things until you can get the result you want. When it comes to translating, there are words and grammar points that I know and those that I don't. When I don't know something, it isn't an option to say "I don't know this" and move on, there's just one option - learn. No matter what we're talking about, nobody ever starts as an expert. It's a matter of dedication and willingness to learn what you don't know. Of course, how you go about things is your business and I don't mean to dictate what you should do, so I apologize if I come off like that.

In the end, all I really want to say is that there's no real reason to doubt Cless. True, he has not yet released a project, but people still gather around him and respect him for the work he does. I would never have approached Cless if I didn't believe that he was someone who would see his projects through to the end. If you are willing to believe that my Tales of Innocence project will be completed, than you should be willing to believe in the fact that I trust Cless to see things through. That's the entire point of making it a joint project - both sides bring something valuable to the table.

[Kajitani-Eizan]

And if it's the fact that he's too busy to work on them then what is the point in starting one, not finishing it (Phantasia) then starting another one and not finishing it (Destiny 2) then starting another one and blaming the fact it shouldn't have been announced yet down to me.

i can be pretty argumentative, and maybe i shouldn't be... but i'm going to have to call you out on this one. the project was being worked on since before you started on ToDR, i assume. cless didn't want to announce it until it was decently far along. he ended up announcing it essentially because it would be discourteous to you to continue to work on it in secrecy. while this is certainly an unfortunate turn of events, i'm not sure cless deserves your ire.

as for why he decided to work on it at all without finishing the other two projects... because things can happen in parallel? because different people working on different stages of the various different projects might be able to spare their free time at different times? as it currently stands, i don't believe the ToDR project is slowing down work on ToP PSX or ToD2 in any way.

[pesmerga00]

whatever these guys decide to work on in their free time is their choice, i just hope they realize its this one that gonna make the biggest splash in the tales gaming community

[throughhim413]

as it currently stands, i don't believe the ToDR project is slowing down work on ToP PSX or ToD2 in any way.

If anything, I think it's probably Tales of Innocence that's holding up ToDr the most. >_<

[Lanyn]

And if it's the fact that he's too busy to work on them then what is the point in starting one, not finishing it (Phantasia) then starting another one and not finishing it (Destiny 2) then starting another one and blaming the fact it shouldn't have been announced yet down to me.

I don't know about Cless, but I've had times when I got sick of translating ToR's script (and I was only working on it for about 20 months). The only difference is that instead of starting a project on a different game, I just worked on ToR stuff that wasn't related to the storyline (e.g. tutorials, exhibitions). It can be a much needed breath of fresh air and at the same time, you're getting something done even if it wasn't what you had originally set out to do.

Plus, I believe all three projects have their own staff aside from a handful of people who act as coordinators or whatnot, so it's not like he's pulling away resources from one game to work on another.

Alls we here is:
 "great news, the script is finished and ready for inserting! This game is so clsoe to completion"
1 year later we havn't heard anything else from it.
Phantasia has been in progress for what.. like 8 years?

Well, you can text edit, right? Have you offered to help?

I like Cless, i'm not bashing him as a person, so this isn't personal.

Cless strikes me as the type of person who takes a lot of pride in his work, so it's possible that he may not see things this way.

[Cless]

I haven't read everything recently posted in this thread, and don't really desire to considering the most recent responses, but...

I'm not about to throw my ToP project on the backburner for ten years just to make a few people happy. ToP has to got be finished above all else, and I work on it almost every friggin day. If you don't think I'm tired of having it on my back for so long, you are mistaken.  I could release what I have done right now and call it 1.0 if I really really wanted to-- The entire game except one skit is playable in English. I give a damn that everything is coherent, reads naturally, and is generally on par with a well done professional localization. The script is having an exhaustive amount of work put into it, and not just by myself. The various staff have our off periods where we feel burned out, and have to put up with issues in real life (Nusakan and Habilain are tied up with school, gogs is extremely busy with jobs, etc)

Frankly, I'm still up to my nose in ToP work at the moment, and if I didn't, I'd consider spending some of my free time on the other open projects. ToP is, and will always be #1 priority until it is ready for release.

My advice is...find something else to do, and not obsess over this. The PS2 has an absolutely massive backcatalogue of RPGs, for starters.

We are not machines.

[Bartlebycs]

We are not machines.

Speak for yourself. 

[gyozilla]

Blame me if you want to, it's not Cless' fault. Everyone's been pretty diligent except me. I've just been feeling crazy shitty, only working to survive.

[Penance]

Romhacking has never been about having a fancy website or anything like that, so I hope I never implied anything like that.

Yeah, I know it's about having the skills over having the fashion but you generally get more respect and credit if you have a forum, looks more professional--like you're more committed.

No one starts out as an expert, everyone has to learn. I'm a translator, so I might be speaking in ignorance, but I would encourage you to learn to make tools, learn ASM, learn some of those things that are currently beyond you.

I'm actually taking a programming/computing course in College soon, it's definatley something I want to try out so I thought "Hey! Why not!?"

It's a matter of dedication and willingness to learn what you don't know. Of course, how you go about things is your business and I don't mean to dictate what you should do, so I apologize if I come off like that.

You shouldn't apologize for nothing you've done wrong. I'm being a total ass hole at the moment, I know. I'm sorry, thh.
And your words do mean alot to me, believe it not they actually fill me with confidence and will power.

In the end, all I really want to say is that there's no real reason to doubt Cless. True, he has not yet released a project, but people still gather around him and respect him for the work he does. I would never have approached Cless if I didn't believe that he was someone who would see his projects through to the end. If you are willing to believe that my Tales of Innocence project will be completed, than you should be willing to believe in the fact that I trust Cless to see things through. That's the entire point of making it a joint project - both sides bring something valuable to the table.

I really don't doubt Cless, he's easily one of the greatest PS2 Hackers around. If anyone can do a Tales of translation project it's him, I just want to be able to expirience atleast one of his projects for the first time. We've seen buckets of screens so we know what the game looks like. It's just a metter of seeing it for ourseves. I hope that doesn't sound selfish, theres no other way I can put it but I definatley don't mean to be rude.

---

i can be pretty argumentative, and maybe i shouldn't be... but i'm going to have to call you out on this one. the project was being worked on since before you started on ToDR, i assume. cless didn't want to announce it until it was decently far along. he ended up announcing it essentially because it would be discourteous to you to continue to work on it in secrecy. while this is certainly an unfortunate turn of events, i'm not sure cless deserves your ire.

What ire? I'm not angry...
I know it was in progress before I started, I wouldn't have started mine if I knew that.
It's the fact that it's down to me he announced it. I didn't tell him to, he didn't ask me to. He asked me to keep it quiet and I said yes, I'd prefer it to be quiet because I knew what people would think once he announced it:
"Oh, Cless and another unreleased project, big deal."
I didn't really want people mouthing about it because I had being PMing Cless and I know how hard he had been working on it along with Throughhim but then when Cless announced it and spoke of the project as "something pretty much forced it to be announced" it really put me on a guilt trip so I was a little mad for that because part of me felt like Cless was acting stingy towards me like it was my fualt or something. And then I didn't get a PM reply from him in like a month so it felt like he was beginning to ignore me off all together. (I know Cless will probably read this and I hope he does, I don't mean that in a bad way, btw XD)

Well, you can text edit, right? Have you offered to help?

Numerous times but I know Cless hates it when people offer to help, nevertheless I still really wanted to do what I could. It may have been his Destiny: DC but because I was working on it and had the majority of Menu text done I thought I may be able to be of some help--maybe I knew where a string of text that Cless couldn't find was, idk...

@Cless; I never implied you should stop working on Phantasia. When it's released it will most likely be one of the best translations out there. I'm sorry if you felt I was saying you should scrap it and work on Destiny: DC for our desire.
I guess the reason I'm biased towards you "needing to finish" Destiny: DC is because I scrapped my project because you were doing it and then if you just stop doing it, it makes me feel pretty annoyed that I stopped for you but you're barely even working on yours. I don't know how much you work on Destiny: DC (afaik you're on a break) so obviously I could be completely incorrect.
I know you're a busy man Cless, so I'm sorry if you think I'm being too demanding and really.. up myself.

[ricardol14]

Why don't release the path with is already have translated? i want so much play this game...if the skills, abilities, and itens already is translated, already is great...why is taking so much time to release? i don't mind of translated storyboard...

[Cless]

Did you purposefully ignore the stickied thread about it being on hiatus? It's still relevant.