Major milestone reached: Main ASM hacking is complete! (April 9, 2008)

[Cless]

Here's another version. Triple original rates, slightly faster than doubled. Shows off all 5 speeds this time.

http://www.tales-cless.org/video/ToP/top_msg_speed_3x.avi

[habilain]

On the PAL thingy - I ran a couple of generic NTSC->PAL patchers over the ISO. I think the output indicates that they can fix the vertical positioning problem, some supposed colour problem, but not the framerate problem. I'm not really able to test this as I do not own a PSX/PS2/PS3, in any form.

[Cless]

I'm not really able to test this as I do not own a PSX/PS2/PS3, in any form.

FWIW I can't test this either. I've no use for a PAL console. Carn might be able to, though...

[Seejay]

PAL? So you're fixing it to work in PAL as well?

If so... how would you fix the 17% slowdown problem and the squished picture?

And may I chime in and say I just saw this in full action on both a set of PAL and NTSC PS3s?
(People, don't ask. But at least, hey, good to know that it works smoothly on a PS3 too, if you've got one that may play everything you feed it, right? )


Only "issue" was that on the PAL PS3, just like on a PAL PS2, any 60hz NTSC game will be forced to play at 50hz.
However, unlike the PS2, the PS3 at least display the screen more correctly aligned vertically and not cut-off like a PAL PS2 does to the picture output of NTSC PSX titles.


This means the game will be a tiny bit slower and it seemed like at least that on some of the longer audio clips (opening video and intro sequence) there was some minor stuttering.
I dunno if there really is any way to fix this or not. (both the screen positioning on a PAL PS2 and the lack of PAL Optimization)


On an old PSX, PSP and in emulators the 50/60hz speed thing is not an issue.

really? my PAL ps2 runs the NTSC games in 60hz. It doesn't force 50hz. Must be the modchip you're using or maybe you're using an old ps2.

On the PAL thingy - I ran a couple of generic NTSC->PAL patchers over the ISO. I think the output indicates that they can fix the vertical positioning problem, some supposed colour problem, but not the framerate problem. I'm not really able to test this as I do not own a PSX/PS2/PS3, in any form.

As far as i'm aware, there are no generic NTSC to PAL converters that will fully optimize the game. Some games companies these days don't even properly optimize their games to PAL because it's to expensive and time consuming because they have to redo all the sprites and the rest of the artwork at a different resolution and find a way to make it run the same speed at 5 les frames per second. Your best bet would be to find a way to add a 50/60hz selection screen like on most dreamcast games and newer ps2 games released in the PAL region. I think there were even some PAL ps1 games with a 60hz selection option.

[Carnivol]

On the PAL thingy - I ran a couple of generic NTSC->PAL patchers over the ISO. I think the output indicates that they can fix the vertical positioning problem, some supposed colour problem, but not the framerate problem. I'm not really able to test this as I do not own a PSX/PS2/PS3, in any form.

FWIW I can't test this either. I've no use for a PAL console. Carn might be able to, though...

I've got both a modded PAL PS2 (Housing a fantasticly old Magic 3.1 and also fitted for some disc swaps for some additional "fun") and a TEST Kit.  The PS3 I've used will be out of reach for me probably by the end of this week (but available again later this year, most likely.  Maybe I'll get a personal one at some point). 

Anyway, the screen positioning/cut-off happens only on the PAL PS2, but should be patchable/fixable.  I can try some generic patches when I get home (end of this week, probably) just to see if it that fixes the problem on the PS2. 

really? my PAL ps2 runs the NTSC games in 60hz. It doesn't force 50hz. Must be the modchip you're using or maybe you're using an old ps2.

Unless you've got some fancy mod-chip like a DMS3-4 or something that probably has ways to force various display modes and stuff, PAL PS2s (unless this was fixed on the PSTwo/Slim) will always run NTSC PSX games in an awkward way.

[Seejay]

i have a PAL v17 ps2slim with a Matrix Infinity modchip and it runs my NTSC PSX an my NTSC PS2 games perfectly. However on some tvs there's a bit of awkward display on the NTSC ps2 games. Like on my brother's tv. It cuts a few lines of picture on the top and bottom of the screen. But on my tv it works great.

Yeah sure it's not perfect. But it's better than running the game 17% slower with a squished picture.

I'm pretty sure it might be the TV. I bought a Sega Genesis from america and my tv cuts the top and bottom off the screen as well. Even though the machine is NTSC and the games are NTSC.

But now that i remember. My old PS2 was a PAL v5/6 with a magic 5 chip in it. It would run most ps2 games perfectly (except for on DL backups. Those needed to be patched).
But with psx games, only the PAL ones would run fine. When i tried my NTSC psx games, it took a few tries to get a lot of them to boot. Some of them wouldn't boot at all (like chrono Trigger and Xenogears). but the ones that did eventually boot (which was pretty much all of them except for those two) had a huge chunk of the screen cut off at the top and a huge black bar at the bottom (obviously due to misalignment). it also ran much slower (probably 17% slower just like an unoptimized PAL game). So i think it might be the old modchips that don't tell the console what it's booting but instead convinces it that it's booting a game from it's own region which in turn makes the ps2 boot it with it's own video signal (which in this case is PAL). But don't take my word on that. It's just my theory and i'm just a n00b at this sort of stuff. But as I said, my new ps2 with the matrix infinity chip runs all NTSC psx and ps2 games flawlessly (except for metal gear solid 2: substance which, as far as i'm aware, cannot be booted on anything).

[Kogahazan]

I don't really know much about video standards and stuff, but I find it odd that PAL setups would cut off the picture of an NTSC signal since PAL usually has 625 lines while NTSC has 525. It makes sense to me that an NTSC system would cut off the picture of a PAL game, but not the other way around. There's probably more to it; can anyone explain?

[Leiw]

What the hell are you guys talking about??


Let's get this PAL thing straight :


1] PAL Ps1 consoles and up can output at 25 frames/second (50 Hz) and at 30 frames/second (60 Hz)
If it doesn't output a NTSC game correctly it means you have an older TV which doesn't support 60 Hz (like in a NTSC signal) or are using one of those first ps2 modchips which are forcing NTSC signals to be displayed in 50 Hz.

2] NTSC to PAL patches aren't really needed. The only thing you need is a decent modchip and a TV that supports 60 Hz. Also earlier ps2 modchips had a lot of problems to correctly display games from other regions and "Y and X axis fixes" were needed.
(Carnivol, magic 3.1 was one of the early ps2 modchips that forces 50 Hz whether the video signal is PAL or NTSC, that's why you are experiencing problems, on the latest modchips you can manually choose the output or let if configure automatically)

3] The 16,67% slowdown experienced in games only happens if a game is already PAL or if a NTSC game is forced to run at 50 Hz. Just load up a Tekken game or any fast-paced game in 50 Hz and 60 Hz. You will see the difference. PAL60 compatible games do not have this slowdown.

4] PAL has 625 lines. NTSC has 525. However the actual picture is displayed in 576 lines for PAL and 480 lines for NTSC. The "unused lines" are to store additional information like synchronization data. This is only needed for analogue video. Games and digital video do not require them. These unused lines are displayed in black and you can notice this if you rip a movie from your TV trough a capture card on your computer. While it may look like a perfect 4:3 output on your TV, the raw video data that you captured on your computer will have black borders around the actual frames.

5] The reason a PAL setup can correctly display a NTSC frame is because PAL TVs/consoles can make use of a PAL60 mode. 60 stands for 60 Hz and in this case also uses 525 lines. So actually when you are playing a NTSC game, your console can force it to output it into PAL60 and since PAL60 is compatible with NTSC it will display it correctly. On the other hand, NTSC does not have such an "emulated" PAL mode with compatible color signals and the picture will not be cropped correctly. This is because an NTSC TV will only output the "first" 525 lines from a 625 lines input. In this case those so called Y-axis patches can help to center the picture and make it so that you can view the entire frame.

6] PAL-M is used as a standard in Brazil and can considered to be NTSC because the specifications are very similar, only the colour carrier is different. Ps2 consoles in Brazil are NTSC Region 1 and thus not even compatible with local Region 4 DVDs. Thank Sony for that one.

7] The reason why a NTSC game may look in black and white on your PAL console and vice-versa is because PAL and NTSC use different coulour carriers. If you use a RBG cable on a PAL TV set, the coulours will be displayed correctly if your TV supports 60 Hz. PAL60 is a mixture of both PAL and NTSC colour carriers. On the NA market, you can also find PAL2NTSC converters that use a CINCH input/output.

8] All these old TV standards will "die" in NA and Europe between 2009 and 2015 because TV signals will only be output in digital broadcast, meaning a movie will be output in a certain resolution, like 720x480, 352x576, and thus displayed in 480i/480p, 576i/576p, 720p, 1080i/1080p, etc and not in lines like on those analogue TVs. This is why HDTV makes everything easier. The standards are the same for everybody.

9] On my PAL PS1 modded with a "universal modchip" I have never experienced any problem with NTSC games. I had three Ps2 : V3 PAL (unmodded), V9 PAL (Dms 3) and V10 PAL (matrix infinity)
On the first one I could only test PAL ps1 games which seemed to work fine. On both modded consoles ps1 games from other regions worked fine, though I had to enable a ps1 patch first in their respective bioses.

10] NTSC signal is actually 29,976 fps (-> 59,94 Hz) but is called 30 fps / 60 Hz.



I hope this cleared up everything for you guys

Edit : see habilain's post below for more info

[Carnivol]

What the hell are you guys talking about??


Let's get this PAL thing straight :
2] NTSC to PAL patches aren't really needed. The only thing you need is a decent modchip and a TV that supports 60 Hz. Also earlier ps2 modchips had a lot of problems to correctly display games from other regions and "Y and X axis fixes" were needed.
(Carnivol, magic 3.1 was one of the early ps2 modchips that forces 50 Hz whether the video signal is PAL or NTSC, that's why you are experiencing problems, on the latest modchips you can manually choose the output or let if configure automatically)

This issue happens on both my PAL PS2 TEST kit (debug system) and my retail PAL PS2 unit (both when using swap and the old Magic 3.1, I'd say both are common).  I'll take screenshots of the "cut off" thing when I get home. The Cut-off issue is a really weird thing, but it should be easily fixed.  Basicly, it cuts a good... I dunno... think it's about 20lines or something from the bottom of the image itself (no, this is not the difference between PAL and NTSC resolutions and also not the black area usually put on some games in specific resolutions to "combat" overscan).

The screen positioning is correct on the PAL PS3s when force feeding them a PSX NTSC game, but the game itself is forced by the system itself to run at 50hz speed through the backwards compatibility (though, on the TEST kit, I could just swap region to "fix" this, which isn't exactly an option that is available on a retail kit :p).

[habilain]

Liew is mostly correct. Apart from if you want to be totally accurate, it isn't PAL - PAL is only a colour encoding scheme. The 625 line/50hz part of the specification is 576i, and is normally used with PAL. NTSC specifies both colour encoding and frame format.

Also, PAL-60 is not necessarily compatible with NTSC. You can have a PAL60 compliant system, but only get black and white out of an NTSC signal if the TV does not support NTSC colour decoding (as the colour subcarrier is at a different frequency between PAL-60 and NTSC) - only the frame format is similar. It's a moot point; pretty much all TVs sold nowadays are capable of NTSC-M.

The broadcast format used in Brazil is PAL-M. PAL-M puts the colour encoding on pretty much the same subcarrier frequency as NTSC colour encoding (which isn't the case in PAL-60). As NTSC colour encoding can be decoded by PAL hardware, a PAL-M receiver is compatible with NTSC broadcasts (theoretically), though it won't have as nice colour quality.

I'm not aware of what Mod chips can do. It is possible they can do all corrections, and it is possible that they might do nothing. But if the Mod chip knows what it's looking for, it can patch the games executable without you knowing.

Carnivol: You've probably got a TV which is capable of decoding NTSC, but the way the picture is being resized to fit the screen is causing it to mess up. I've seen this happen on a lot of PAL TVs which technically can decode NTSC because the TV is an international model and it was already on the circuit board, but are not designed to decode NTSC and resize NTSC signals incorrectly. Try messing around with aspect ratios if you can; you might be able to find one which works.

In fact, the very fact you're seeing colour at all means your TV is capable of decoding NTSC. If it couldn't then you wouldn't be seeing anything.

[Leiw]

(I slightly edited my post above)

Here is some info about my ps2's modchip (matrix infinity), those are taken from the configuration menu :



PS2 SCREEN FIX   :

OFF    : Disables PS2 video fix.

COLOR  : Games will be output on their original video mode (PAL/NTSC)
                            with color correction applied to match your PS2 region.

PAL    : Force video mode to PAL

NTSC   : Force video mode to NTSC

PAL60  : Force all games to NTSC with color correction.
                            Games will run faster but screen might need adjusting.




Y SCREEN FIX     :

OFF    : Y screen position fix is disabled.

AUTO   : Y position fix enabled with default settings.
              Should be fine for most television sets.

+/- N  : Fine tune Y position.
            Positive values move the screen down, Negative values move it up.




Ps1 Games Fix :


ON     : All PSX import games are played at FULL SCREEN and FULL COLOR






Ok I guess this explains why you can throw pretty much everything at the latest ps2 modchips.
Everything is taken care off automatically as can be seen in the options above.

[Carnivol]

Carnivol: You've probably got a TV which is capable of decoding NTSC, but the way the picture is being resized to fit the screen is causing it to mess up. I've seen this happen on a lot of PAL TVs which technically can decode NTSC because the TV is an international model and it was already on the circuit board, but are not designed to decode NTSC and resize NTSC signals incorrectly. Try messing around with aspect ratios if you can; you might be able to find one which works.

Not the TV.

Happens both over composit, RGB(SCART) and component on all screens I've tested it on and on several PAL units I've had access to.  Though, I've never tried it on a slim and none of the later fancy mod-chips which has all sorts of odd modes and fixes for things.  My NTSC units and the PSX outputs things fine on the same screens.

I'll make sure to take pictures of this oddity when I get home, 'cause it's kinda hard to describe.


(Note: I kidnapped this picture from an old newspost on the frontpage)

Not exactly an accurate rendition of things and may be slightly over-exaggerated. It's meant to give you the basic idea:

The green lines indicates where the overscan would normally eat a little piece of the picture on some screens.

The red line indicates where the overscan approximately hits on the top on the PAL PS2, so I have to adjust the vertical position of the picture.

The pink-ish line indicates where the image just goes black, which also leaves the remaining 1/5-ish piece on the bottom of the TV screen itself black.

Note: the map screen in ToP (unlike the menu and battle screen, I think) does not contain any of the black bars on top and bottom (and sometimes on the sides) that are normally present and somewhat counter the effect/possibility of overscan eating your image.

But yeah, I'll try to grab some proper photo of this when I get home again.

[Cless]

ANYWAY.

That screen reminds me that Habilain is now working on some tools to make dealing with the skits a little easier, since there's nothing else really important to ASM hack...

I don't recall if I've mentioned this before, but we've found that some skits have no room at all on the screen for text, unless the text itself overlaid the portraits. For these cases, we are going to modify the positioning of the portraits as little as possible to make room for the subtitles for those cases. Hopefully there aren't many, but so far that seems to be the case.

[Seejay]

Not the TV.

Happens both over composit, RGB(SCART) and component on all screens I've tested it on and on several PAL units I've had access to.  Though, I've never tried it on a slim and none of the later fancy mod-chips which has all sorts of odd modes and fixes for things.  My NTSC units and the PSX outputs things fine on the same screens.

I'll make sure to take pictures of this oddity when I get home, 'cause it's kinda hard to describe.


(Note: I kidnapped this picture from an old newspost on the frontpage)

Not exactly an accurate rendition of things and may be slightly over-exaggerated. It's meant to give you the basic idea:

The green lines indicates where the overscan would normally eat a little piece of the picture on some screens.

The red line indicates where the overscan approximately hits on the top on the PAL PS2, so I have to adjust the vertical position of the picture.

The pink-ish line indicates where the image just goes black, which also leaves the remaining 1/5-ish piece on the bottom of the TV screen itself black.

Note: the map screen in ToP (unlike the menu and battle screen, I think) does not contain any of the black bars on top and bottom (and sometimes on the sides) that are normally present and somewhat counter the effect/possibility of overscan eating your image.

But yeah, I'll try to grab some proper photo of this when I get home again.

That's because the image is not aligned to the screen properly. It did that with my magic 5 chip as well. It would display the image too high, cutting off a huge chunk of the top while leaving most of the bottom intact with a big ass black bar at the bottom. but mine still had the problem of slowdown (which was very noticable on dragonball GT: Final Bout). And yes there are patches to fix that exact problem.

so Carnivol it's because of your modchip. Not your PS2 or TV. (Well maybe the ps2 as you said you'd tried swap magic as well).

[Cless]

I was pretty sure that Carn said that that affected his debug unit as well, which requires no modchip to boot imports and backups. So yes, that would suggest that it is a PS2 problem.

[Cless]

Habilain just submitted his skit editing / subtitle insertion tool! It works nicely.