The Decline of Nintendo?

[Cless Aileron]

I don't know if this is something to get something going.  However, something in me is calling for a rant on the decline of Nintendo (and I am going to be brutal here) because Nintendo really has been disappointing me.
---
Most of you know me as a Nintendo fan...but I honestly can label myself as a self-hating Nintendo fan.  Maybe because of the Nintendo fanboys made me snap (especially if you consider a Game Informer scan of a certain Revolution game called Red Steel was shown around the 'net and then their reaction was like, "Take that, PS3 and Xbox 360!" and "Nintendo will pwn you, Sony and Microsoft!").  Maybe I'm a self-hating Nintendo fan because I don't kiss Nintendo's butt and those Nintendo fanboys makes me embarrassed to even be a Nintendo fan but either way, I think this rant is called for.

I honestly think the Gamecube was far more of a disappointment than the Nintendo 64 (which is saying alot since the Nintendo 64 was a disappointment).  I mean, the games Nintendo came out with did not really stand out for me.  Now, I'm all for being open-minded to games and not to get into the "kiddy game" label but seriously, despite the N64's disappointment, at least Nintendo's games were better than what they came out with on Gamecube.  Super Mario Sunshine wasn't all that great, Wind Waker was a disappointing sail-fest (despite never being a "Celda" basher), and Super Smash Bros Melee gets so tiring to play so quickly, even in multiplayer.  I should also mention there was some disappointing GBA games too (Mario and Luigi: Super Star Saga being one of them), so it's not like the GBA is off scott-free.  I could continue but I'm only covering the big names here.  There were only a few that really stuck out, like Paper Mario, which isn't really saying much.

And then there's how Nintendo is treated like god or "True Savior of the video game industry, fighting the evil corporate known as Sony and Microsoft."  Please.  We're also talking about a company that released "Mario and friends in Wacky Sports game #13," countless Mario Party games that really isn't much to talk about, and so many rehashes of Pokémon that can barely be classified as evolving the game, even getting them to think, "Pokémon still exists?"  Really, if they're suppose to be the only one that still cares about gaming, they sure don't act like it, especially when the games have been very disappointing.

Now the next thing I need to criticize Nintendo for...their sole dependence on their "precious" franchises.  Honestly, they rely on them so much.  Come on!  Sony doesn't rely on every franchise and manage to get something out like God of War and Shadow of the Colossus and Microsoft only had two Halo games out and that's their only major franchise for Xbox.  Even when they have something original, they're going to end up having to plaster one of their franchises on it *coughDonkeyKongJungleBeatcough*.  And remember my disgust with Mario, Luigi, and Peach being in NBA Street V3's Gamecube version?  Well, that just shows how dependant they are on their franchises that in order to combat the other two versions having online play, they have to show their franchise into it to sell more.  Thus showing that Nintendo has to shove their franchises everywhere.  Let me put it this way.  Look into Tetris DS.  They practically went overkill with the Nintendo theme there.  Seriously, does it need to be every game?  Then there's franchise stability.  After all, if the franchises ends up falling apart, you wouldn't want to deal with that franchises anymore.  If they are so dependent on those falling franchises, then they're going to be in trouble.

Then there's the mistakes Nintendo have made.  The Nintendo 64 is a pretty obvious one.  They stuck with cartridge and got themselves screwed.  They ended up losing third party support, which went over to the Playstation (after all, they did lose Square because of this).  Next comes the Gamecube.  They were foolish to ignore online play.  Let's ask those people who played SOCOM on the PS2 or the millions of subscribers to Xbox Live.  They show they want online play.

I think that the point I'm trying to say is...Nintendo is not all that it's cracked up to be.  And quite frankly, "The old gray mare, it ain't what it used to be."  Nintendo has been pretty disappointing over the year.  I can't say I'm jumping up and down for Revolution due to Nintendo's disappointing record right now.  They really need to get their act together before they really fall apart.
---
I just want to hear your comments about it.  Is Nintendo declining?

[Cless]

I don't know. With Iwata taking over for Yamauchi, prospects seem way up to me. The DS is kicking ass in Japan like nothing else ever before it.

Although they use their mascots a lot, I have no problem with them. They seem to be much more interesting than your average "original" character being made these days. The games themselves tend to be pretty unique unless they're part of a strict series... like Pokemon or Mario Party. Those are the only ones I can really think of that really suffer from "Megaman-itis". They sell extremely well, so from a business standpoint, there's really no reason to stop making them.

Their characters and themes are popular. It allows them to take more risks in game design. People see their favorite characters and decide they want to play the game. On another plus side, is a measure to keep development costs down.

The use of the characters in Tetris DS seemed to add to the charm to the game. Not only that, but the additional game modes are somewhat inspired around the theme of that character's game, and gives it a little more flavor. And it all seemed like a nod to the old school fans, since the graphics used and music remixes were taken/based from/on the old NES games.

They have invented new IPs in the last generation. Animal Crossing, Pikmin, and Stafi (not released in US) come to mind. They also softened up and finally brought over some IPs they've been stuck in Japan since forver (Fire Emblem and Advance Wars/Famicom Wars). After being in stasis for so long we FINALLY got some new Metroid games as well. The Primes were exceptionally awesome, and probably my favorite non-RPG games of this generation and they were an excellent transition for the franchise into 3D.

Apparently a few new IPs are in the works for Revolution.

For DS, there's the Brain Training series, and while not exactly a new IP altogether, Princess Peach finally got a game she could call her own. There's probably more in the works.

IIRC, a lot of Nintendo's "new" IPs in the N64 era came from Rare.

Anyway, I like Nintendo and am secretly hoping for them to rise to the top next console gen with the Revolution. I think it has huge potential like nothing else, as the DS is showing.

[Magicpaint]

don't know if this is something to get something going.  However, something in me is calling for a rant on the decline of Nintendo (and I am going to be brutal here) because Nintendo really has been disappointing me.

Even with the DS?

Most of you know me as a Nintendo fan...but I honestly can label myself as a self-hating Nintendo fan.  Maybe because of the Nintendo fanboys made me snap (especially if you consider a Game Informer scan of a certain Revolution game called Red Steel was shown around the 'net and then their reaction was like, "Take that, PS3 and Xbox 360!" and "Nintendo will pwn you, Sony and Microsoft!").  Maybe I'm a self-hating Nintendo fan because I don't kiss Nintendo's butt and those Nintendo fanboys makes me embarrassed to even be a Nintendo fan but either way, I think this rant is called for.

Fanboys will always be fanboys, Sony fanboys and Microsoft fanboys are no better, why single out Nintendo fanboys? I've heard countless Sony fanboys saying MGS4 will own E3, same with Microsoft fanboys but with Too Human and Halo 3.

I honestly think the Gamecube was far more of a disappointment than the Nintendo 64 (which is saying alot since the Nintendo 64 was a disappointment).  I mean, the games Nintendo came out with did not really stand out for me.  Now, I'm all for being open-minded to games and not to get into the "kiddy game" label but seriously, despite the N64's disappointment, at least Nintendo's games were better than what they came out with on Gamecube.  Super Mario Sunshine wasn't all that great, Wind Waker was a disappointing sail-fest (despite never being a "Celda" basher), and Super Smash Bros Melee gets so tiring to play so quickly, even in multiplayer.  I should also mention there was some disappointing GBA games too (Mario and Luigi: Super Star Saga being one of them), so it's not like the GBA is off scott-free.  I could continue but I'm only covering the big names here.  There were only a few that really stuck out, like Paper Mario, which isn't really saying much.

All these are opinions really. As much as SM64 and OOT are more revolutionary titles than SMS and TWW respectively. I enjoyed SMS and TWW more than I did SM64 and OOT respectively.  The Prime games are two of my all time favourite games, with Metroid Prime being the highest rated game this generation. The GBA is simply a treasure to me, that I can play so many SNES classics on a handheld is a godsend, not to mention the two Metroid entries that were equally brilliant. So I can't say I agree with you here, but I can see your point in the sense that these games add to your disappointment.

And then there's how Nintendo is treated like god or "True Savior of the video game industry, fighting the evil corporate known as Sony and Microsoft."  Please.  We're also talking about a company that released "Mario and friends in Wacky Sports game #13," countless Mario Party games that really isn't much to talk about, and so many rehashes of Pokémon that can barely be classified as evolving the game, even getting them to think, "Pokémon still exists?"  Really, if they're suppose to be the only one that still cares about gaming, they sure don't act like it, especially when the games have been very disappointing.

If these games sell well, why the hell should they stop makiing them? It's simple business you SUPPLY to DEMAND. Period. Just because they do this, doesn't mean that is ALL they do. Nintendo has done a superb job for the industry, this is a well known fact. The NES single-handedly save the industry for the '80s crash and revived people's interest in gaming, it brought in so many revolutionary titles like Super Mario Bros. So many of their gaming and hardware innovations have become standards, and the Revolution is demonstrating what Nintendo does best... innovate and introduce new concepts the freshens up the industry, same with the DS like Cless pointed out.

Now the next thing I need to criticize Nintendo for...their sole dependence on their "precious" franchises.  Honestly, they rely on them so much.  Come on!  Sony doesn't rely on every franchise and manage to get something out like God of War and Shadow of the Colossus and Microsoft only had two Halo games out and that's their only major franchise for Xbox.  Even when they have something original, they're going to end up having to plaster one of their franchises on it *coughDonkeyKongJungleBeatcough*.  And remember my disgust with Mario, Luigi, and Peach being in NBA Street V3's Gamecube version?  Well, that just shows how dependant they are on their franchises that in order to combat the other two versions having online play, they have to show their franchise into it to sell more.  Thus showing that Nintendo has to shove their franchises everywhere.  Let me put it this way.  Look into Tetris DS.  They practically went overkill with the Nintendo theme there.  Seriously, does it need to be every game?  Then there's franchise stability.  After all, if the franchises ends up falling apart, you wouldn't want to deal with that franchises anymore.  If they are so dependent on those falling franchises, then they're going to be in trouble.

You simply don't know the appeal of Nintendo's franchises then. PORTS of the Mario games PUSH over 1.5 million copies in NA ALONE, declining? I beg to differ. Pokemon is still the biggest thing around, not only that, but they don't actually over-rely on franchises either, where are you getting this notion from? To then even include Sony who gave us 4 Ratchet and Jak games EACH and 3 Sly games this gen for the PS2 (I love them all though ^_^) makes your case even worse. GC introduced Pikmin, Animal Crossing and the DS has shook up the market with Brain Traning and Nintendogs, all huge sucesses with a plethora of other new stuff to come, so I simply disagree with this notion. They rely on their franchises, no doubt about that (who the hell wouldn't if it brings in the cash), but they are also good at taking risks with innovation more so than Sony and Microsoft.

Then there's the mistakes Nintendo have made.  The Nintendo 64 is a pretty obvious one.  They stuck with cartridge and got themselves screwed.  They ended up losing third party support, which went over to the Playstation (after all, they did lose Square because of this).  Next comes the Gamecube.  They were foolish to ignore online play.  Let's ask those people who played SOCOM on the PS2 or the millions of subscribers to Xbox Live.  They show they want online play.

They were not foolish to ignore online play since only 15% of Xbox owners have actually played games online and around 5% for the PS2. The GC's mistake was the overall lack of perspective from Nintendo, they just slipped with ideas that didn't work, but in the end, they sold 20+ million units respectable by any standards, except for the PS2's astronomical numbers.

They've finally gone online with the DS and gained a million subscribers in a much shorter time than both Xbox Live and PS2.

The N64 might have lacked third party support and sales in respect to the PS1, but their use of catridge didn't bite them in the foot financially, certainly not to the level a lot of naysayers would lead you to beleive. The biggest selling N64 games > biggest for PS1. Not only that, but software is where the money is at. So it's no surprise that the N64 raked in cash for Nintendo that was at least as much if not more than what the PS1 gave Sony. Right now, Nintendo is *gasp* in a better financial state than Sony, believe it or not, and last two weeks, they recorded profits that were so high that they hadn't seen such since late 2001. This bring me to the GBA, why haven't you included it? It has sold 70+ Million units and yet nintendo makes money on BOTH hardware and software with the thing. You simply cannot deny the success of the GB and now the DS brand when speaking about Nintendo's future, you're points are way too selective.

I think that the point I'm trying to say is...Nintendo is not all that it's cracked up to be.  And quite frankly, "The old gray mare, it ain't what it used to be."  Nintendo has been pretty disappointing over the year.  I can't say I'm jumping up and down for Revolution due to Nintendo's disappointing record right now.  They really need to get their act together before they really fall apart.
---
I just want to hear your comments about it.  Is Nintendo declining?

Nintendo is still the most profitable videogame company in the industry, that they are declining is simply a myth. Nintendo sells more hardware and software that people will lead you think. You might think the quality of their games are reducing, but that's a subjective belief, it's not hardcore fact. The facts are Nintendo is profitable and as such is not in anyway declining.

I can understand your disappointment overall, but it holds no real bearing to Nintendo's future. The DS is a huge success, it's has been the fastest selling system EVER in Japan with over 7 million units already sold, software Numbers for Nintendo alone are over 15 million, not including third party sales, the DS has prided itself with excellent games with entries in a series I'd consider the best, I'm sure the new Mario game will be my favourite too, coming from Nintendo's mouth, I'm sure Twilight Princess will indeed be the very best Zelda game, as Miyamoto says, Nintendo is better than ever as far as I'm concerned or at least since the SNES-era. I love their whole new philosophy, I can't wait for the Revolution or see Nintendo's own project at E3.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that at this E3 and as a Nintendo fan, you'll come to appreciate and understand the reasons why they are held in such high regards in the first place. They might have tripped, they might have made mistakes in the past, but that they are still kicking ass (unlike SEGA who fell to oblivion) is a testament to their overall greatness.

[Venoman]

This topic has been covered fairly well from both standpoints, so rather than get into a rant of my own I'll just make a few points:

Yes, Nintendo relies heavily on its first party characters and games.  Frankly they have to, given that third party support isn't what they want it to be.  The exception there most likely being the GBA, which had developers from all across the board creating games toward the end of its run, before there were viable alternatives for handheld gaming.  The point is, to maintain a software library impressive enough to entice someone to purchase their console (for example), they had to put a lot of work into first party titles.  No dancing sim for the cube?  Enter DDR: Mario Mix.  Need a good soccer game for the console?  Mario strikers.  Yes, they've used their arsenal of characters to the point where you'd be sure it would've worn thin by now, but the thing is, I have trouble faulting them:  they're almost all really solid games.  Incidently, Superstar Saga?  I thought that one was freaking awesome! 

As for the topic at hand, venturing a guess at this point in Nintendo's history is pretty much impossible.  They're still dominating in the handheld market, and I don't see that changing any time soon.  The big question is the codenamed Revolution:  it's either going to soar or fall on its face, and all the speculation in the world amounts to nothing until the console is released to the public.  Maybe we'll start to get an inkling when E3 rolls around.  If it doesn't do well, my guess is it will be their last console, unless they do something like a standalone virtual console type thing.  If the Rev is embraced by gamers, however, third party support will quickly follow, and the big N won't have to rely so heavily on their first party games and characters.  Time will tell, as they say.

[Magicpaint]

Why do people say if Rev fails it'll be Nintendo's last console? I doubt it, I sincerely do.

It took SEGA the Genesis/Mega Drive add-ons, the Saturn and the Dreamcast before they bowed out. They weren't even making nearly as much money as  Nintendo and they were in debt for a large period of time during the Genesis' life, so why should Nintendo suddenly bow out if the Rev bombs, when that would be the first failure, save for the Virtual boy which was an experiement? I don't get the logic. 

Even if the Rev fails, they still have more than enough cash reserve to do another console, and probably even survive that scare. Honestly, I don't see Nintendo backing out because of this. Like they say, "When we stop maing consoles, we stop being in the industry, period" or something like that. 

But at worst, the Rev would do GC numbers (considering with the GC Nintendo barely did anything, and they've already said they'd be utterly disappointed if the Rev doesn't outperform the GC, so expect full support like you see with the DS), so there really isn't anything to worry about, at least at the moment.

[Hark]

First of all, the rabid fans of Nintendo should just be ignored, they're just like the rabid fans of the other console-makers. They just blindly follow the company around and should be thought of as only air-headed advertisers (even though they may give a bad image to the company in question).

The Nintendo 64 definitely had some precious gems, but what it had in third-party support was WORSE than even the Gamecube. The Gamecube is something I consider more of the recover console, though it isn't that great, at least Nintendo has tried to mend ties with the developers and thus they will get more support for their next console.

They had, however, made mistakes with the Gamecube. Without online, they took a hit for that one. They had released the adapters for online, but unfortunately, they hadn't backed them up themselves with online features in their games and so the other developers didn't either. Good thing online will be featured on their next console (as has already been so with the DS), though I hope they don't tone it down, especially not make other developers tone it down either. Apparently, people actually cared about the colour of their console and were pissy at Nintendo for launching it in indigo, this along with "kiddy" didn't help Nintendo's image amongst the 7-16 year olds that are so obsessive with their own "image". So then sales went down the drain and developers abandoned ship.

Anyway, because of this, Nintendo had to make up for it so what better way to do it then send out the mascots in full force and let Hudson whore out Mario Party? Well there were better ways but I guess that's the solution Nintendo had. However, Nintendo has been stuffing Mario in many places before, Mario was referee in Punch-out, Mario was in Golf, Mario characters were featured in many puzzle games before, so this is nothing new. For someone who enjoys the Tales series, though, I don't see why you're complaining. They are just cranking those out by the bunch these days, there's a reason why they have a studio dedicated to them now.

Nintendo is struggling to keep the Gamecube afloat (well maybe not anymore) so they couldn't just put all their resources into making new games. When you're the console king, it's much easier. So instead, Nintendo puts their new gaming ideas into existing franchises, because that's what sells. Making new franchises will not only cost more to make up the concepts, but will gather less sales, not good at all. Though it doesn't mean they have stopped making new franchises, they have made games like Pikmin and Cubivore.

What I'm iffy on is the fact that they're going on and on about bringing in the new gamers with things like "touch generation" and easier difficulty, while leaving out existing gamers... a name like "Revolution" just seems to gleam full of ego. They act as though they will take charge and change gaming as we know it, telling us what we like and don't like. Ah well, I'm just glad to see a substantial change in gameplay, bringing with it fresh gaming concepts. I just hope they don't abandon the original gaming complex altogether. Good old gamepad with buttons.

[Cless Aileron]

First of all, the rabid fans of Nintendo should just be ignored, they're just like the rabid fans of the other console-makers. They just blindly follow the company around and should be thought of as only air-headed advertisers (even though they may give a bad image to the company in question).

The Nintendo 64 definitely had some precious gems, but what it had in third-party support was WORSE than even the Gamecube. The Gamecube is something I consider more of the recover console, though it isn't that great, at least Nintendo has tried to mend ties with the developers and thus they will get more support for their next console.

They had, however, made mistakes with the Gamecube. Without online, they took a hit for that one. They had released the adapters for online, but unfortunately, they hadn't backed them up themselves with online features in their games and so the other developers didn't either. Good thing online will be featured on their next console (as has already been so with the DS), though I hope they don't tone it down, especially not make other developers tone it down either. Apparently, people actually cared about the colour of their console and were pissy at Nintendo for launching it in indigo, this along with "kiddy" didn't help Nintendo's image amongst the 7-16 year olds that are so obsessive with their own "image". So then sales went down the drain and developers abandoned ship.

Anyway, because of this, Nintendo had to make up for it so what better way to do it then send out the mascots in full force and let Hudson whore out Mario Party? Well there were better ways but I guess that's the solution Nintendo had. However, Nintendo has been stuffing Mario in many places before, Mario was referee in Punch-out, Mario was in Golf, Mario characters were featured in many puzzle games before, so this is nothing new. For someone who enjoys the Tales series, though, I don't see why you're complaining. They are just cranking those out by the bunch these days, there's a reason why they have a studio dedicated to them now.

Nintendo is struggling to keep the Gamecube afloat (well maybe not anymore) so they couldn't just put all their resources into making new games. When you're the console king, it's much easier. So instead, Nintendo puts their new gaming ideas into existing franchises, because that's what sells. Making new franchises will not only cost more to make up the concepts, but will gather less sales, not good at all. Though it doesn't mean they have stopped making new franchises, they have made games like Pikmin and Cubivore.

What I'm iffy on is the fact that they're going on and on about bringing in the new gamers with things like "touch generation" and easier difficulty, while leaving out existing gamers... a name like "Revolution" just seems to gleam full of ego. They act as though they will take charge and change gaming as we know it, telling us what we like and don't like. Ah well, I'm just glad to see a substantial change in gameplay, bringing with it fresh gaming concepts. I just hope they don't abandon the original gaming complex altogether. Good old gamepad with buttons.

There's a few things I can agree with (Like neglecting online).  However, I still need to say some other things.

I never really thought the Gamecube was really much of a recovering thing, which is why I think the Gamecube was more disappointing than the N64.  They didn't really do much to recover.  Along with the disappointing Nintendo games, they did lose third party support when it looked like they actually did have some and don't really support the system.  It looks just like it was with the N64.  Let's not forget the suppose "exclusive" games (Exclusive is definitely the biggest "load of crap" word in the game industry).  First off, Viewtiful Joe.  Outstanding game and one of the suppose "exclusive" games for the Gamecube...oh wait!  They decided to port that to the PS2 afterwards.  Now let's take one of last year's "Game of the Year".  I'm talking about Resident Evil 4.  Revitalized the decaying Resident Evil series with outstanding gameplay and made survival horror fun again.  Definitely giving a Gamecube some fighting...wait!  Capcom decided it would be ported to the PS2 (under request of the stock holders and fans worldwide)!  Get this, it was announced before the GCN version was even released!    With the PS2 version released, it did not sacrifice that much to get it to run on the PS2.  Also, it even included extra features for the PS2 version (extra costumes, an extra weapon to use, an extra bonus mini-game).  Many will argue that features are greater than technical stuff like shadowing and how well it runs.  So the question will be, why bother with the Gamecube now since the Gamecube exclusive games have been moved to the PS2...with more features?  Not to mention, there's more to find on the PS2 (if there's one thing I learned, third party support is more powerful than first party support and that's something that the PS2 has).

Now, many Nintendo fans will think Nintendo was stupid for letting Rare go.  Personally, this is one thing I think they did the right thing.  Rare wasn't really doing anything and Star Fox Adventures was seen with mixed results among the fans (I fall under the catergory of, "It wasn't that great and wasn't a good Zelda clone").  After Microsoft acquired Rare, what did we see with them?  A lackluster game, "Grabbed by the Ghoulies" and a remake of the risque N64 game, "Conker's Bad Fur Day".  So, Nintendo knew what they were doing when they let Rare go.  Something I can give credit to Nintendo for.

Now, something else I want to debunk about Nintendo...delays.  Sure, we heard the saying (Please bare with me I don't know the exact quote), "A rushed game will be bad forever.  A delayed game will eventually be good."  However, delays can also be hurtful.  After all, they're a business.  They also have to think of the stock holders.  Delaying a major game (in this case, Twilight Princess) will most likely upset the stock holders.  The game should not turn into a target for jokes.  Let's not forget the often delayed game that's a target for jokes for many people, Duke Nukem Forever (Or should I say, "Duke Nukem Taking Forever").  So, delays can be hurtful too.  After all, it is about quality and quantity (Sure, quality come first, but quantity shouldn't be neglected).

Just a few other things that need to be said about Nintendo.  Also open for debunking.

P.S.  Yes, I do think Namco has been milking Tales and releasing too many of them in such short time with varying results.  However, I haven't seen anything about them where I'll considered them to be suffering from Megaman-itis like Mario Party and Pokémon have (take the littlest thing, like Megaman's example, remove the slide from Mega Man 3 and you got Mega Man 2.5).  Of course, that's just me.  Even with the quality and quantity thing, I still think Namco needs to slow down with the Tales games.

[Hark]

Yes, Gamecube's third-party "support" is definitely horrid. At least it's not like the N64 where it seemed like only Nintendo and Rare were making games for the system. At this point, the Gamecube is pretty much dead with the Zelda game as the final bang before their next console. The delays for the Zelda game may have something to do with the fact that the game will take advantage of the next system's features if the game is played on that system and perhaps to act as a semi-launch title for their next console.

The whole Capcom thing is, as I remember, mostly because of their financial troubles. To gain more money they ported the games to the PS2. Either way, Nintendo has improved their relationships with other developers and now with their next console perhaps they will take on a new image and improve sales, thus gaining more customers, thus gaining more third-party support. Already, it has been said that there will be 20 games at launch. Seems good to me.

[Kogahazan]

Most of you know me as a Nintendo fan...but I honestly can label myself as a self-hating Nintendo fan.  Maybe because of the Nintendo fanboys made me snap (especially if you consider a Game Informer scan of a certain Revolution game called Red Steel was shown around the 'net and then their reaction was like, "Take that, PS3 and Xbox 360!" and "Nintendo will pwn you, Sony and Microsoft!").  Maybe I'm a self-hating Nintendo fan because I don't kiss Nintendo's butt and those Nintendo fanboys makes me embarrassed to even be a Nintendo fan but either way, I think this rant is called for.

Fanboys... for and not but or yet so... just a little thing for remembering prepositions... Anyway, fanboys in gereral piss me off. I am not prejudicial in my hate of fanboys, I just hate all of them no matter what system they are supporting nor how good their argument is. If you start speaking l33t and just praising your company as if God created it, then I hate you. Now people who can be amusing while doing it, that takes skill and it pays off in me getting a good laugh. Don't pin everything on a Nintendo fanboy, all fanboys are like that.

me is calling for a rant on the decline of Nintendo (and I am going to be brutal here) because Nintendo really has been disappointing me.
---
Most of you know me as a Nintendo fan...but I honestly can label myself as a self-hating Nintendo fan.  Maybe because of the Nintendo fanboys made me snap (especially if you consider a Game Informer scan of a certain Revolution game called Red Steel was shown around the 'net and then their reaction was like, "Take that, PS3 and Xbox 360!" and "Nintendo will pwn you, Sony and Microsoft!").  Maybe I'm a self-hating Nintendo fan because I don't kiss Nintendo's butt and those Nintendo fanboys makes me embarrassed to even be a Nintendo fan but either way, I think this rant is called for.

I honestly think the Gamecube was far more of a disappointment than the Nintendo 64 (which is saying alot since the Nintendo 64 was a disappointment).  I mean, the games Nintendo came out with did not really stand out for me.  Now, I'm all for being open-minded to games and not to get into the "kiddy game" label but seriously, despite the N64's disappointment, at least Nintendo's games were better than what they came out with on Gamecube.  Super Mario Sunshine wasn't all that great, Wind Waker was a disappointing sail-fest (despite never being a "Celda" basher), and Super Smash Bros Melee gets so tiring to play so quickly, even in multiplayer.  I should also mention there was some disappointing GBA games too (Mario and Luigi: Super Star Saga being one of them), so it's not like the GBA is off scott-free.  I could continue but I'm only covering the big names here.  There were only a few that really stuck out, like Paper Mario, which isn't really saying much.

Now if you want to start games, some of what you're saying is a matter of personal preference. I heavily disagree with Melee as that is a fighting game. There's people that play fighting games for years. Melee is great for catering to both casual and serious players, but there is a huge community out there for competitive playing.

Now for the franchises, it's been made a point that this is because franchises are like guaranteed sales. Companies do it all the time, Nintendo notwithstanding. Each console has its own share of innovative new franchises. Some that come to mind is GCN's Pikmin, PS2's God of War, and Xbox's ... I'm sure there's something, I think my point has gotten across though...

Then there's the mistakes Nintendo have made.  The Nintendo 64 is a pretty obvious one.  They stuck with cartridge and got themselves screwed.  They ended up losing third party support, which went over to the Playstation (after all, they did lose Square because of this).  Next comes the Gamecube.  They were foolish to ignore online play.  Let's ask those people who played SOCOM on the PS2 or the millions of subscribers to Xbox Live.  They show they want online play.

Online is a very tricky subject to get straight. There's no denying that Xbox and PS2's online services are more successful than Gamecube. They felt the time wasn't right and I agree with their reason: That despite the number of people who are online on those consoles, it's only a small percentage of the people who actually own the console. They're trying to fix that with the DS by making online very easy to access. Little set up and easy connection.

I never really thought the Gamecube was really much of a recovering thing, which is why I think the Gamecube was more disappointing than the N64.  They didn't really do much to recover.  Along with the disappointing Nintendo games, they did lose third party support when it looked like they actually did have some and don't really support the system.  It looks just like it was with the N64.  Let's not forget the suppose "exclusive" games (Exclusive is definitely the biggest "load of crap" word in the game industry).  First off, Viewtiful Joe.  Outstanding game and one of the suppose "exclusive" games for the Gamecube...oh wait!  They decided to port that to the PS2 afterwards.  Now let's take one of last year's "Game of the Year".  I'm talking about Resident Evil 4.  Revitalized the decaying Resident Evil series with outstanding gameplay and made survival horror fun again.  Definitely giving a Gamecube some fighting...wait!  Capcom decided it would be ported to the PS2 (under request of the stock holders and fans worldwide)!  Get this, it was announced before the GCN version was even released!    With the PS2 version released, it did not sacrifice that much to get it to run on the PS2.  Also, it even included extra features for the PS2 version (extra costumes, an extra weapon to use, an extra bonus mini-game).  Many will argue that features are greater than technical stuff like shadowing and how well it runs.  So the question will be, why bother with the Gamecube now since the Gamecube exclusive games have been moved to the PS2...with more features?  Not to mention, there's more to find on the PS2 (if there's one thing I learned, third party support is more powerful than first party support and that's something that the PS2 has).

I get your point in that there's little recovering because they're losing third party games that they would have greatly benefited from keeping exclusive. That is just out of their control at this point. I tend to argue the point that whatever happened has happened so deal with the problems that it has caused to happen now. Some people felt they could have stopped Sony from seizing the console market if they just went through with the CD attachment for SNES, but I think it may have not made a difference. From what I heard, Sony wanted to split because they wanted to get all the profits from CDs sold and just use Nintendo to sell their CD games for SNES. If that's what they wanted, they realized they don't need SNES for this and split to make PS1. Nintendo couldn't really do so much and they can't do much now. Now Sony has a big enough fanbase to force game companies like Capcom to release their former GCN exlusives on the PS2. Not Nintendo's fault, they could have never forseen that Sony would have screwed them over this bad, and it's real hard for them to win back third parties, but at least they're trying.

Now, something else I want to debunk about Nintendo...delays.  Sure, we heard the saying (Please bare with me I don't know the exact quote), "A rushed game will be bad forever.  A delayed game will eventually be good."  However, delays can also be hurtful.  After all, they're a business.  They also have to think of the stock holders.  Delaying a major game (in this case, Twilight Princess) will most likely upset the stock holders.  The game should not turn into a target for jokes.  Let's not forget the often delayed game that's a target for jokes for many people, Duke Nukem Forever (Or should I say, "Duke Nukem Taking Forever").  So, delays can be hurtful too.  After all, it is about quality and quantity (Sure, quality come first, but quantity shouldn't be neglected).

Yeah, it pisses off stockholders, but if Nintendo believed the payoff was worth it, then it may quite possibly be. Look what happened with Ocarine of Time. Delay after delay, but it made the game so much better and the game still sold a lot. Twilight Princess is their last major thing and they can't afford to screw it up with their reputation the way it is. They take quality very seriously, but they believe that fans will put up with delays to make sure the game is as great as it can be. I feel with Nintendo, they've given nothing but quality games for the main installments of their long beloved franchises (except maybe Zelda II, but that was still fun to an extent). I believe in their commitment to their fans. Also sometimes it can sound you're just anxious for the game. As you can see in my lists of unfinished games, I have no problem waiting out this delay. School or work can really pass the time.

Even with the quality and quantity thing, I still think Namco needs to slow down with the Tales games.

I actually find something worthwhile in each main Tales game, even the ones that came out under the rush schedule. The Tales series has always struck me as having a standard of quality in each installment.

I am highly anticipating the Revolution. Whether it does save Nintendo's bacon, I have no idea. I still am going to support them. I still find their games fun and agree with their business plan. This is one revolution that really is going to be a revolution.

[Cless Aileron]

To say a few things...

Fanboys... for and not but or yet so... just a little thing for remembering prepositions... Anyway, fanboys in gereral piss me off. I am not prejudicial in my hate of fanboys, I just hate all of them no matter what system they are supporting nor how good their argument is. If you start speaking l33t and just praising your company as if God created it, then I hate you. Now people who can be amusing while doing it, that takes skill and it pays off in me getting a good laugh. Don't pin everything on a Nintendo fanboy, all fanboys are like that.

Well, I actually want to slug each kind of fanboys in the stomach.  Sony fanboys have such an inflated ego because Sony rules the market and that you're not cool unless you own a PS2.  A few of them are also worried about their image.  Then there's the Xbox fanboy.  Criticize the Xbox and they'll think "You're ignorant of the Xbox's greatness...oh yeah and Halo is a great game, whenever you admit it or not."  However, Nintendo fanboys have been showing how bad they are.  They go acting like they're the victim and give Nintendo too much credit than they deserve, which is why I'm talking about it.  I found an article on a different forum on Fanboy Intervention (And the article is pretty harsh) and they mainly use the Nintendo fanboys as an example due to the recent revealing of Red Steel, like I mentioned eariler, with their reactions.  I've ended up seeing one post going, "This guy has something against Nintendo." and "Why only against Nintendo fanboys?"  The example I brought up was how they act like they're the victim because the media is criticizing Nintendo.  I've been criticizing Nintendo because they're getting too much credit than they deserve, especially from fanboys.  Despite the Nintendo criticism, I still want to punish all console fanboys because I have dealt with all three kinds.  Just something I want to clear up.

I am highly anticipating the Revolution. Whether it does save Nintendo's bacon, I have no idea. I still am going to support them. I still find their games fun and agree with their business plan. This is one revolution that really is going to be a revolution.

I'm still skeptical about the Revolution.  The Fanboy Intervention did mention a few things about the Revolution.  Red Steel, from what I read, you reload by pulling back on the controller and jumping over or hiding behind object just takes a flick of the wrist.  Wouldn't that mean we'll have to keep it leveled and maybe even hurt our wrist.

Other than that, good points.  If anyone else got some debunking of Nintendo arguments, I'd like to see some.  I'm currently out of criticism about Nintendo.

[Kogahazan]

I'm still skeptical about the Revolution.  The Fanboy Intervention did mention a few things about the Revolution.  Red Steel, from what I read, you reload by pulling back on the controller and jumping over or hiding behind object just takes a flick of the wrist.  Wouldn't that mean we'll have to keep it leveled and maybe even hurt our wrist.

Well, it would be pretty stupid if you had your arm sticking out while you're playing. I think a lot of people who complain about how the controller will cause arm stress might be thinking you\'d have to stick out your arm the whole time. A lot of people who play tested it did that at first and then realized how silly it was and sat down and had their arm on their lap. You really just need to move your hand. Also you don't really need to do these movements quickly. Take it slow and do smooth, comfortable movements.

[Magicpaint]

Kogahazan has covered most of what I've already wanted to respond to, I think this has been a great thoughtful discussion so far.

One thing though, whether or not "Nintendo gets too much credit than they deserve" is almost comletely dependent on the way you see Nintendo and what you see around matters relating to them, and of course this varies from person to person.

I for one think Nintendo also gets too heavily criticised sometimes, especially as this is the same company that has made many industry standards. Take the DS for example, analysts from left, right and center dismissed it as a portable gimmick or a virtual boy 2 in the making, to be obliterated by Sony's PSP! Yet the results have proven otherwise. Each side has a point, Fanboys can make Nintendo look like some divine entity, but at the same time, the anti-side also make them look like a non-entity, it really depends on perspective.

I for one can't say much on that matter, Nintendo gets praise, Nintendo also gets heavy criticism, it's pretty balanced these days, especially since their fall to Sony, a lot of people have simply dismissd them as irrelevant, on the other side, fanboys hope for a redemption.

We just have to wait and see what their strategy for E3 is. If anyone can demonstrate this hardware with compelling software, it's Nintendo. And if the DS is anything to go by, Nintendo could be a strong contender in this console race, time will tell.

[Caer-caveral]

I can't add that much to any side of the argument, because I really don't care all that much. Nintendo hasn't interested me very much after the SNES era. I don't really have a lot of time to play games anyway, and if I have to choose what I'd rather play, Guilty Gear-series and Tales will always come first.

Nintendo has made their consoles a huge pain to play fighters on ever since N64, so they're out on default for being too unGG-friendly. I feel they rely far too heavily on designing their consoles for their own games rather than catering to the masses. Might be good or bad depending on your opinion, but I'm not wild about it.

[Shadow of Chaos]

Hum... I suppose Ill add my two bits to this as well.

Personally, I do think the revolution will have to be everything that Nintendo makes it out to be. With as much time as they have spent delaying Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, the hype for it is high (Did you know that at this point the U.S.'s version of the game is supposed to come out before the Japanese version?), and I have a feeling it will have to be PERFECT to the series to save Nintendo at least in the console market. They still stand a chance with the DS, but the problem in the end is that, I'm afraid to say, the PSP outshines it here in the U.S., simply because of the fact that it will be a "All in one" device.

Now, your probably reading that and thinking "This guy is probably a fanboy himself." I'm not, nor do I think I ever was. The only systems I have ever owned are a N64 (Still works, BTW), a Gamecube (It fried my huge memory card), a Playstation (It was given to me by some of my cosins, but it was broken to begin with, and never worked), A gameboy color, a gameboy advance, a gameboy SP, and a gameboy micro (I do admit I am a "Fan boy" of the GBA.), but I still see the good parts of all other systems (I think if the cube had conformed to something the PS2 and Xbox had set up, DVD play, that it may have done a little better).

Anyway, I cant say I like the bashing of the N64. Ill be the first one to admit that it could have done better, but from a gaming standpoint, some of it was good (The pros of a cart is that you don't have to worry of the disk getting scratched, and the things are almost indestructible though normal wear and tear. The cons are if you lose it, you start all over again, and there is the marketing thing that they cost so much to make.) But for every bad thing one can say of it, at least the games were fun without being too... well, you know. Anyway, the N64 brought us LoZ:OoT, which everyone can admit is a good game. (I am and will always be addicted to the Zelda series, no matter what happens to Nintendo)

But as for the decline of Nintendo... yea, it will happen, at least in America. In all seriousness, the Cube flopped big time, with no on-line play, and trying to appeal to a younger audience (I suppose RE4 and some others could be used to debate this, but in all seriousness, its definitely set to a younger audience).

Now that their last games have come out for the GBA (Anyone who holds the delusion that it will still be a big thing is deluded, remember what happened to the N64 when the Gamecube came out?), they can expect little to no sales comming from there, because for the most part, everyone who had it would have everygame they wanted (I still haven't gotten any of the new systems, nor have I felt any real need to). And the DS, like I said, will be eventually, if not immediately, be overshadowed by the PSP's ability to manage all of your data (Its because of how America thinks now; If it cant do everything, it might as well do nothing).

The Revolution's sales, I feel at least, all depend on the sales of LoZ:TP. At this point, its the only game left to look forward to on ANY current Nintendo console, excluding the DS, which at this point, I couldn't care less. Unfortunately, if they delay it one more time, they will lose almost all of the fanbase they have here, except for maybe some of the younger audience, who still have all those other games.

In the end, Nintendo has its franchies, just like Microsoft and Sony (I dont have one for Sony off the top of my head, but  anyone know about DoA and Master Chief as a unlockable?), and some of that shouldnt effect you too much (Although I do admit the thing with Tetris DS is going a little too far).

[FoxSpirit]

Decline of Nintendo? The DS is doing incredible and the new lite one is so good that even I will get one.
Plus it has some system sellers for me already: new Castlevania, new Mario, Sonic Rush, new Mana. Oh, and the new Zelda, of course.
Franchise titles they all are but incredibly enough, they are all great games.

Now the PSP has the following games making it a must buy for me: ....

The PSP has been really doing bad so far and even though I at first was all over it for it's sheer power and great display, that has already faded. And if I need a data management tool, a good pocket PC simply owns the PSP.

Now the Wii, we will see... hey, that rhymes 
Like the DS, it will be all about the games to sell this system but with Nintendos more casual approach, I'm almost certain that there will come games that convince me to buy it. Actually the backwards compatibility and the ability to download a giant amount of old NES, Super NES and N64 titles alone might make me consider it. As long as they are fairly priced.


I think Nintendo did the right think, going to mostly unexplored markets. Sony and MS throw huge bucks at each other at a mass that would make any gaming only company face-fault. There is always a niche for an alternative market and I'm pretty confident Nintendo will fill it.

[Goshi]

Yes the DS is beating up the PSP due to the PSP having such a weak game selection (I still plan to get one though).

Now the Wii I'm concerned about, the ability to download games off old systems is a welcome addition but I personally think that feature is FAAAAR too overhyped. So what if we can download games we used to play, BIG WHOOP. If we still have the console with them on it why don't we just play it with that instead?

But my main issue is the new controller. As many of us know the N64 has the worse controller design ever... period. It looks like you need 3 arms to play on it, not only that but the analogue is begging for you to have blisters on your hands, which I do have right now actually. The button were fine except that the L Button and the D Pad are just a pain in the ass to use, and when you think about it, the N64 controller sorta looks like someone's genitalia.

The GC, the controller buttons were pretty screwed up, to often I find myself pressing R instead of Z or Z instead of R. The B button is too small and A button is FAR too big for no reason what so ever, but otherwise this controller wasn't so bad conpared to the N64, but now back onto the Wii.

Now the controller appears to be Nunchucks with a remote control for one end and a Joystick for the other, it will feel kinda a weird to use. The ability to interact with things on the screen may seem like a cool idea but its only welcoming arms for a bunch of mini-games rather than actual games, which is a huge NO. And chances are seeing actual games being released for it is rare, considering its bizzare controller. However a ton FPS games are looking forward to the Wii, I can't really stand FPS games to be honest, but others might be interested. Plus its going to have online support, another thing I really don't care for either but like I said others might like. But really the game selection might just end up as weak as the GC.