Hold on. Someone's telling us two of the CDI Zelda games are good?

[Gloom]

Okay, if Lengendia is so bad, which non-tales PS2 RPGs should I play?  Have I missed out?

Edit:  And Tales Of The Abyss is as dark as the tooth fairy.    Sure the characters where pretty well designed, but it still was another teen emo drama. (Characters reactions taken into account)

Not that I wouldn't love for the Tales series to get darker....and maybe take some cues from Berserk?   (Make it an escort series if you have to)

Edit2: that edit was slow....

[Kogahazan]

I have a confession. I like Sandy Fox, the VA for Shirley, Mieu, Flonne in Disgaea, and Marona in Phantom Brave. Everyone finds her annoying in just about every role she plays, however. I thought she was perfect in the NIS game roles, though. I probably won't be able to live this down.

I think Shirley's English voice is appropriate, not so annoying. I think Mieu's English voice is fittingly annoying, though. For Mieu, I don't readily know anything in the English-speaking world equivalent to high-pitched hyper cute mascots, so I don't know what else bamco america could have done with Mieu's voice.

[Cless Aileron]

I have a confession. I like Sandy Fox, the VA for Shirley, Mieu, Flonne in Disgaea, and Marona in Phantom Brave. Everyone finds her annoying in just about every role she plays, however. I thought she was perfect in the NIS game roles, though. I probably won't be able to live this down.

(I'm toned down during this post)

People may jump on you for saying that but I'll say this.  It's not as bad as when people criticize the English voice of Tear Grants in Tales of the Abyss and points the finger at the wrong voice actress (They point the finger at Heather Halley and every time I see someone post the e-mail they get from Halley asking the question, she replies that no, she is not Tear Grants in Tales of the Abyss, she's Chloe Valens in Tales of Legendia).

I want to say that they all have the high pitch/squeaky voice thing in common but I don't know anything about Marona's personality and mannerism to know if she falls under that voice trope (thus, the hate that Sandy Fox might get).  Doesn't help that Shirley as a character is highly hated, as I pushed in previous posts in the topic.

Okay, if Lengendia is so bad, which non-tales PS2 RPGs should I play?  Have I missed out?

I hear Suikoden III's pretty excellent (and a series I'm trying to squeeze into my backlog).  Odin Sphere is too.  Oh yeah, and the Megatennists will recommend Shin Megaten Tensei (maybe even specifically, Persona 3 and Persona 4).

I'm very aware I'm being a hypocrite when I'm in prick mode in this topic.  Just telling you right now.  Just play along with it, since that's how I'm proving Tales of Legendia is horrible.

[Cless]

Okay, if Lengendia is so bad, which non-tales PS2 RPGs should I play?  Have I missed out?

Valkyrie Profile 2 is my favorite RPG of the generation, but a lot of people are divided over it.

Then there's Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne (nearly all the games with SMT are supposed to be damn good, but I've only played Nocturne so far).

Shadow Hearts 1 AND 2 (it's a continuous story, and both games need to be played).

I also had some fun with Dark Cloud 2 and Final Fantasy XII.

[pedrocasilva]

And please, if you actually paid attention to Luke's story, he had every right to be emo!  He's a legit emo

awwww... c'mon dont "legit emo" me! he's emo, they shouldn't have written him like that, all he does is whine and whine... I have that glimmer of happyness when I see a new skit, but I was constantly turned down by the "ohhhhh, I'm a darn replica, I suck, I should jump of a cliff, no one likes me" more than emo he was extremely negative, repetitive and... gahhhhhhhhhhh.

unlike the jerk known as Leon Magnus or the pussy known as Emil (who deserves more hate than Luke and were more annoying than Luke)!

The one you cosplayed as? 

But then again, I can say you're overrating the awful Tales of Legendia yourself, trying to make it out to be better than it really is.

Perhaps, but I think you're running it into the ground a little too much as well, so even if we're both exagerating (I don't think I am) somewhere in the middle should be the reality, no?

Honestly, I'm still not convinced Tales of Legendia isn't a piece of crap (which it is).

Thing is... no one will convince you otherwise.

You say you hate it, sure. (but comparing it to CDi Zelda is just too much :X)

[Cless]

I think Shirley's English voice is appropriate, not so annoying. I think Mieu's English voice is fittingly annoying, though. For Mieu, I don't readily know anything in the English-speaking world equivalent to high-pitched hyper cute mascots, so I don't know what else bamco america could have done with Mieu's voice.

It's the same thing with Flonne. She's supposed to have an annoyingly sappy voice (what with her being an angel in an underworld setting, trying to teach all the bad demons about the the POWER OF LOVE) and Fox nailed the part perfectly. It all comes off so damn funny in context to me. Anything else would have just been totally wrong.

Fox's Marona voice is almost the same as Flonne's, except well...the "annoying" nuance is toned down a lot, at least what I perceived as the "annoying" nuance. It comes off sounding a lot more cute and innocent. Come to think, I've heard less criticism for her Marona performance than the other three I mentioned, but maybe I just managed to dodge them somehow.

[Gloom]

I hear Suikoden III's pretty excellent (and a series I'm trying to squeeze into my backlog).  Odin Sphere is too.  Oh yeah, and the Megatennists will recommend Shin Megaten Tensei (maybe even specifically, Persona 3 and Persona 4).

I'm very aware I'm being a hypocrite when I'm in prick mode in this topic.  Just telling you right now.  Just play along with it, since that's how I'm proving Tales of Legendia is horrible.

Damn, I have lots of these games, I need to get to them already....

And for the other part, yes I agree, Legendia has some major flaws, but I will still somehow ended up enjoying it, does that mean I have bad taste?  

Valkyrie Profile 2 is my favorite RPG of the generation, but a lot of people are divided over it.

Then there's Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne (nearly all the games with SMT are supposed to be damn good, but I've only played Nocturne so far).

Shadow Hearts 1 AND 2 (it's a continuous story, and both games need to be played).

I also had some fun with Dark Cloud 2 and Final Fantasy XII.

I have a lot of these too.........
*Takes a bunch of games off the shelves*

Edit: @both Cless's, (I am seeing double  )  I don't need to play Koudelka, the earlier Suikodens or Valkyrie profile 1 to understand what is going on?

[Cless]

I think the narrative of VP2 goes down better after getting familiarized with VP1 (and getting the best ending, too). The story will have a lot less impact without playing it. Most people hate what they did with VP2's story, but still; they are connected.

I didn't play Koudelka before Shadow Hearts, though. Most people have felt the connections are minor at best, even though you have to do something with its main character late in the game. SH2 pretty much has nothing to do with it.

[dragurd]

The Suikoden's usually have a character or 2 form a previous but other than that the stories aren't really needed to be known. I also recommend Suikoden V. Vi was okay but nothing special. If you are in for a challenge try Breath of Fire:Dragon Quarter. Radiata Stories was also pretty good.  Other than that the recommended are good.

To contribute I didn't really like Legendia except for some of the enemy designs and Chloe and Grune. The rest was just ehh. I also was put off by the main character not wielding a sword it's just something I've come to expect of tales games.

[Cless Aileron]

As far as I know, Suikoden looks like its installments can stand alone but seems connected but I'm not actually sure about that (Well, I did say it's a series I've been meaning to check out).  (Okay, before I got this posted, someone answered it already.  Thanks.  You did it better than I can)

Well, back to the program.

awwww... c'mon dont "legit emo" me! he's emo, they shouldn't have written him like that, all he does is whine and whine... I have that glimmer of happyness when I see a new skit, but I was constantly turned down by the "ohhhhh, I'm a darn replica, I suck, I should jump of a cliff, no one likes me" more than emo he was extremely negative, repetitive and... gahhhhhhhhhhh.

Well, isn't that part of his character growth?  What?  Were you expecting him to be some emotionless bastard?  I mean:

Abyss Spoilers: He was confined to the mansion for most of his life, gets unexpectedly warped to part of the outside world, does something stupid and does something to make up for it, also finds out he's a replica of Asch that is, technically, younger than he looks, thus know he shouldn't have been created in the first place.

Yeah, he has every reason to be emo!

The one you cosplayed as?  

Did you ever think that I may just, I don't know, dig the outfit, not necessarily like the character?    It's possible, man!

Perhaps, but I think you're running it into the ground a little too much as well, so even if we're both exagerating (I don't think I am) somewhere in the middle should be the reality, no?

The fans are who wins, unlike Namco, isn't it?

Thing is... no one will convince you otherwise.

You say you hate it, sure. (but comparing it to CDi Zelda is just too much :X)

Yeah, maybe I came to my senses and I realize how horrible it is and deserving of all the hate it gets.  It's back to the rose-tinted glasses thing.  Once you get rid of them, you'll realize the TV shows you grew up on were horrible (What's that?  Did I ruin your childhood memories of the 1987 Ninja Turtles cartoon and Captain Planet because I showed how horrible they really were?  Yeah, something like that).

And I'm still waiting for those hate mail from FF lovers for saying that both Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within and Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children were horrible just because I put those two FF movies on the same level of suckage, when Advent Children is the good one just because it's actually a Final Fantasy movie, unlike Spirits Within.  Besides, that's the same thing I'm doing with CD-I Zelda and Tales of Legendia (please don't make me compare the flaws of the two with each other).

[Craymel]

Nobody likes captain planet... Final fantasy spirits within is also bad but it's a better movie then advent children because it has a plot that isn't completely convoluted. I don't think we have a lot of final fantasy fans here on this board either... I still don't like legendia but when comparing it with the zelda cdi's legendia wins all I'm saying here... If I could only play one game over the other. When I first read your opening post I thought you were being sarcastic about legendia because I could have sworn you defended it before... So that's why my post is written the way it is because I thought you were trying to call zelda cdi a "not as bad as they say" game (it is so as bad as they say)... I'm gonna read you post more closely now.

EDIT: This topic has totally confused me... I can't seem to figure out the intentions of the op.

[Cless Aileron]

Nobody likes captain planet... Final fantasy spirits within is also bad but it's a better movie then advent children because it has a plot that isn't completely convoluted. I don't think we have a lot of final fantasy fans here on this board either... I still don't like legendia but when comparing it with the zelda cdi's legendia wins all I'm saying here... If I could only play one game over the other. When I first read your opening post I thought you were being sarcastic about legendia because I could have sworn you defended it before... So that's why my post is written the way it is because I thought you were trying to call zelda cdi a "not as bad as they say" game (it is so as bad as they say)... I'm gonna read you post more closely now.

EDIT: This topic has totally confused me... I can't seem to figure out the intentions of the op.

Yes, I defended Tales of Legendia previously but that was because I was a moron that didn't realize how awful it really was!  Look at it!  Has anyone actually said anything good about the battle system?  No?  My point exactly!

Considering you're lashing out at the article for saying the CD-I Zelda isn't as bad as they say it is so also proves one thing!

Opinions are a bunch of bull!  Opinions are just something to make you feel better about getting it wrong!  And considering people here are saying the guy who wrote that article saying the CD-I Zelda aren't as bad as you make it out to be is wrong with such words.  No wonder I didn't want to hear any cop out of "It's their opinion!"  Because opinions are a bunch of bull from people that can't think it through properly!  Thus, we get people defending Tales of Legendia even though it's been proven it sucks!  Also, just like how the CD-I Zelda left the biggest black eye to its series, Tales of Legendia left the biggest black eye to the Tales series!  Thus, they're on the same level for the black eye they left to their respective series!

I'm going to list some stuff off from stuff mentioned already:
1.  Both games' visual (minus cutscenes) aren't that bad.
2.  Gameplay for both are horrible, with bad controls and hit detection.
3.  Level/dungeon design are horrible.
4.  Story was horrible for both too!

And these common traits of awfulness for both sides shows how the games are an embarrassment for their respective series.  And now I'm seeing people that hated the game defend Tales of Legendia just because it shouldn't be on the same bad level as the CD-I Zelda game (and it should be, since what they have in common are that they're an embarrassment to their respective series)

Oh yeah, and the only reason fans act like they love Tales of Legendia is because they hated Tales of Symphonia (a game superior to Tales of Legendia) for being so overrated (when we all know Tales of Symphonia is a better game)!

(As for the Captain Planet comment...let's just say my friend finds it awesome despite its awfulness and somehow, Captain Planet managed to live long enough to enter pop culture history.  Yeah, I would think kids did watch it back then.  Show still stinks since it pollutes our mind with horrible writing.)

[pedrocasilva]

I'm seeing people that hated the game defend Tales of Legendia just because it shouldn't be on the same bad level as the CD-I Zelda game (and it should be, since what they have in common are that they're an embarrassment to their respective series)

Isn't... Tales of the Tempest a even bigger ofender though?

And I liked Legendia from the get go.

[Cless Aileron]

Isn't... Tales of the Tempest a even bigger ofender though?

And I liked Legendia from the get go.

Yes, but that doesn't excuse Tales of Legendia when it's still considered a mainline game (Tempest got demoted and Legendia hasn't yet).

Maybe I did like Tales of Legendia when it came out in English in 2006.  But then again, I was a moron that didn't realize it and didn't want to admit how horrible it was.

I don't know.  No one has even to attempt to explain if the battle system is in anyway good (which it isn't).  Also, care to explain why the story and character development isn't horrible (once again, it's horrible)?

Don't worry, there'll be plenty of time (because I doubt anyone can defend the gameplay of Legendia).  Since I'm likely to be on less in the next two weeks, at least they'll be time to actually find something worthwhile in the battle system (doubtful).

Otherwise, it'll just prove that the game is horrible and certain people need to elevate their standards and expectations (like those people who wasted $10 buying the highly shallow Turtles in Time Reshelled on Xbox Live Marketplace that can be beaten in an hour instead of playing Castle Crashers).

[pedrocasilva]

I don't know.  No one has even to attempt to explain if the battle system is in anyway good (which it isn't). (...)

Don't worry, there'll be plenty of time (because I doubt anyone can defend the gameplay of Legendia).  Since I'm likely to be on less in the next two weeks, at least they'll be time to actually find something worthwhile in the battle system (doubtful).

That one is simple:

By Tales standards Tales of Legendia Tales of Legendia battle system felt old, brought nothing new and was albeit a little unrefined by the time it came out, specially considering how combo heavy the Team Destiny Tales games were by then, and how Tales of Symphonia made the jump for a full 3D environment. Horrible? I digress, I think it did it's job... but failed to impress.

Similarly, we might say Tales of Phantasia (SNES/PSone/PSP) and Tales of Destiny PSone are now old games, that are unrefined and clunky by comparison with newer entries... but is that the same as claiming that they're horrible? And would they be considered "horrible" if they were coming out now?

I'm bad at abstract comparisons and feel I'm comparing apples to lemons, but maybe, just maybe... Tales of Legendia is more refined than Tales of Phantasia and Tales of Destiny Psone?

Otherwise, it'll just prove that the game is horrible and certain people need to elevate their standards and expectations

Heighten expectations will only lead to dissatisfaction with the end product. I rather not expect much from anything, and hopefully be surprised. Although I can't help but be heavy hyped at some games... I always try to judge them for what they are and not for what they aren't (and sometimes I do both, but I know how to separate them). similarly, I think you're judging Legendia a little too much for what it isn't in the Tales franchise.

I can tell you that such way of thinking has nothing to do with how lenient I am with Tales of Legendia. It has to do with how much praise I'll throw at games like Baten Kaitos Origins, because I went for them not knowing what to expect (well, I expected Baten Kaitos 2 complete with bad plot and cheesy voice-overs). I'm into gaming to be surprised, tbh. If 1 in 10 RPG's I know not what to expect are like that, then playing the other 9 shitty ones was worth it.

Also, care to explain why the story and character development isn't horrible (once again, it's horrible)?

I don't play Tales of games for the plot. Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss were made of badly pulled clichés for the most part and I wasn't really bothered.

Why isn't it horrible? Why, because it has Chloe Vallens... that's my queue... and my favorite character in the game.

[Cless Aileron]

That one is simple:

By Tales standards Tales of Legendia Tales of Legendia battle system felt old, brought nothing new and was albeit a little unrefined by the time it came out, specially considering how combo heavy the Team Destiny Tales games were by then, and how Tales of Symphonia made the jump for a full 3D environment. Horrible? I digress, I think it did it's job... but failed to impress.

Similarly, we might say Tales of Phantasia (SNES/PSone/PSP) and Tales of Destiny PSone are now old games, that are unrefined and clunky by comparison with newer entries... but is that the same as claiming that they're horrible? And would they be considered "horrible" if they were coming out now?

I'm bad at abstract comparisons and feel I'm comparing apples to lemons, but maybe, just maybe... Tales of Legendia is more refined than Tales of Phantasia and Tales of Destiny Psone?

You're forgetting one thing...what about the hit detection?  Senel's moves actually goes through when they shouldn't!  The primitive battle system still manage to be better on the basis that their hit detection actually works!

Heighten expectations will only lead to dissatisfaction with the end product. I rather not expect much from anything, and hopefully be surprised. Although I can't help but be heavy hyped at some games... I always try to judge them for what they are and not for what they aren't (and sometimes I do both, but I know how to separate them). similarly, I think you're judging Legendia a little too much for what it isn't in the Tales franchise.

Aren't you the one that's all about being "highly demanding" about this stuff (where you went on about how Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World was a serious disrespect back then)?

So yes, it still needs to be smacked for not being what a Tales game is.

I can tell you that such way of thinking has nothing to do with how lenient I am with Tales of Legendia. It has to do with how much praise I'll throw at games like Baten Kaitos Origins, because I went for them not knowing what to expect (well, I expected Baten Kaitos 2 complete with bad plot and cheesy voice-overs). I'm into gaming to be surprised, tbh. If 1 in 10 RPG's I know not what to expect are like that, then playing the other 9 shitty ones was worth it.I don't play Tales of games for the plot. Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss were made of badly pulled clichés for the most part and I wasn't really bothered.

Seems like everyone else makes a big deal about it (especially since this isn't a dungeon crawler, but a mainline RPG) that it still matters to so many (and I get the feeling Namco has also push the story too with the games).

Why isn't it horrible? Why, because it has Chloe Vallens... that's my queue... and my favorite character in the game.

Umm...why?  Characters are suppose to be compelling because of character development!  Heck, I'm still asking why I still like the characters from Tales of Phantasia when they're such flat characters, especially when characters from later installments give better character developments!  Why is Chloe Valens so great?  What kind of well written character development does she have that's so compelling?

So little explanations.  We're being critical here, so I want to hear the analysis.  Don't worry, there's still time.  Though I don't expect others around here are going to point out the positives, since plenty of people here don't like the game.