Hold on. Someone's telling us two of the CDI Zelda games are good?

[Cless Aileron]

Okay, so it's been three years and I'm still not wanting to admit that Tales of Legendia is actually a crappy game that deserves all the bashing it gets and has no redeeming value, especially in gameplay.  I mean, who leaves the multiplayer out of a Tales game?  Who cares if you end up playing the game alone anyway, co-op rules and makes Tales better!  It should have co-op!  Oh yeah, the battle system is horrible and is not worth defending!  Remember, Tales of Legendia is a piece of crap!  Not opinion, but a fact!

Now...considering I'm suppose to talk about two of the Zelda CDI games here, why the heck am I starting the topic out over me and my Tales of Legendia denial?

Because no one wants to hear that Tales of Legendia is anything but a crappy game and should never be referred to as a good game (or even defended).  Like the Zelda CDI games...oh wait!  Someone actually say Link: The Faces of Evil and Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon are good games?

Yes, you heard right!  And this article will not be pandering to those that likes making fun of its cutscenes!  ("Geez!  It sure is boring around here!"  That's right, because you aren't seeing stuff from the cutscenes in the article.)

Now the question is:  "Is both saying Tales of Legendia isn't that bad and can be good and saying Link: The Faces of Evil and Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon are good games seem worthy of bashing the head of whoever said that?"  (Not for real!  But I sense it would head that way anyway!  Besides, save it for after we're done talking about it.)

P.S.  Please don't cop out by saying "It's your/their opinion!"  Because criticizing loves to treat it as fact and being objective, so for the sake of talking this over, we'll treat both "Tales of Legendia is crap and the two mentioned Zelda CDI games are crap" as if they are fact, so we're going in depth here and analyzing the whole defense made over bad games!  Or should we realize that opinions are just a bunch of bull to make us feel better about being wrong?  And honestly, I want to hear what you have to say about this, even under the "it's fact, not opinion" way.

And excuse the tone of the post.  I felt it was needed for this, knowing that people don't want to hear what I bring up.

[Craymel]

none of the cdi zeldas are good even if you ignore the cut scenes. The controls ore horrible and so is the hit detection the final boss is you getting an item and running into him. Your petty because not like legendia get over it.

also if you like legendia  then forget the people who don't at least you like. It's a much better game then any of the cdi zeldas.

[Cless Aileron]

Nah, if the CD-I Zelda games are bad and can point out the problems, then why aren't you pointing out the fact that Tales of Legendia's battle system is lacking in so many departments?  The hit detection is horrible (I mean, one move of Senel's actually goes through them rather than hits them) and is highly stiff.  There is no way Tales of Legendia is better than the CD-I Zelda games.  In fact, they're just as bad as Tales of Legendia.  Heck, they'll all vouch for it.  Did I mention, no multiplayer?  And that's where Tales of Legendia has always failed at.  A seriously bare boned battle system.

Wanna know why I'm so petty right now?  I should be able to point this stuff out yet I'm still denying it and everyone else is willing to point it out and call out how horrible Tales of Legendia is.  I'm as bad as those people who won't take off their rose-tinted glasses and realize many of the old stuff they enjoyed back then actually sucked.  I mean, everyone else objectively pointed out everything that made Tales of Legendia a horrible game (many of them here).

[Craymel]

because I never really played legendia.

[Kajitani-Eizan]

i'm not sure i get what you're driving at.

the article itself notes that the animated cutscenes and controls are both not so good (the latter due to the limitations of the system, admittedly). it doesn't touch upon the hit detection... i don't know if this is because the author of the article didn't notice any such issue, or because he is glossing over it. he certainly glossed over things like the final boss, simply saying it was "refreshing", which says little considering how lame it is. it does note the music and visuals are very good. looking at let's play videos on youtube, it looks like the visuals and music are indeed very good, but that's about it for the game's real strong points -- the sprite animation is rather clunky, the controls are clunky, the enemy spawning is ridiculous, and so forth. it just doesn't look that good, as a game. that isn't to say that it has no redeeming value -- it looks sorta metroidvania ish as the reviewer noted, and if someone were to go in and fix it up a bit, it could be rather good.

legendia also has strong points, like its soundtrack, and while it can't be that bad (yep, i haven't played it!), it has issues that lead people to class it as inferior, compared to other tales games. okay. so what's the issue? an article glossed over the cdi zelda games' shortcomings... okay, what's your point?

(i assume you're just exaggerating when you talk about how bashers say it has no redeeming value.)

[Gloom]

I liked Legendia and never played the CDI Zelda games, sure there are better tales games, but compared to most other RPGs out there....

[Cless Aileron]

i'm not sure i get what you're driving at.

the article itself notes that the animated cutscenes and controls are both not so good (the latter due to the limitations of the system, admittedly). it doesn't touch upon the hit detection... i don't know if this is because the author of the article didn't notice any such issue, or because he is glossing over it. he certainly glossed over things like the final boss, simply saying it was "refreshing", which says little considering how lame it is. it does note the music and visuals are very good. looking at let's play videos on youtube, it looks like the visuals and music are indeed very good, but that's about it for the game's real strong points -- the sprite animation is rather clunky, the controls are clunky, the enemy spawning is ridiculous, and so forth. it just doesn't look that good, as a game.

legendia also has strong points, like its soundtrack, and while it can't be that bad (yep, i haven't played it!), it has issues that lead people to class it as inferior, compared to other tales games. okay. so what's the issue? an article glossed over the cdi zelda games' shortcomings... okay, what's your point?

(i assume you're just exaggerating when you talk about how bashers say it has no redeeming value.)

Okay.  I'll put it this way.  The whole reason I linked the article is because, like saying Tales of Legendia isn't that bad, no one wants to hear that the two CD-I Zelda game mentioned is good.  Pretty much, if you dare say either of these games are in anyway good, they'll pretty much say, "you got to get your brain examined."  (And the article states some quote that "People rather be wrong than be different").  Since I'm trying to put this in an analogy (and pretty much expect the reaction, hence why the topic title only mentions CD-I Zelda and in General Discussion), that's pretty much why I point this out and dragged the awful Tales of Legendia into the mix.  Considering I'm seeing, "He's wrong about Zelda CD-I" and hearing people try to defend the awful Tales of Legendia, it might be flying over people.

Also, this isn't the first time I hear someone saying that the CD-I Zelda aren't so bad.  And that was before 2003.

Also, if you guys haven't played it or at least played a good chunk of it, why exactly are you defending Tales of Legendia?  You didn't even experience the stuff that's wrong with the game.  Might as well point out everything that's wrong with the game.

The serious stuff:
*As mentioned already, the battle system is horrible.  Not only a downgrade but stiff, clunky, and some of Senel's eres/artes actually passes through the enemies.
*Also, no multiplayer!  Sure I'm stuck playing by myself 95% of the time, but even I'm seeing that having no multiplayer is a big no-no!  Seriously, co-op makes games better!  Sure, three people are stuck sitting around until a battle comes up that at average takes less than a minute, but it's co-op and it rocks that the major problem with Tales multiplayer doesn't matter!
*The story is horrible!  It's horribly written with 100x unnecessary sappiness!  Oh yeah, and the character quests makes it worse since it's so tacked on (enough that Namco mistakenly removes the voice acting from that section in the localized version).
*Bad character development!  Once again, horrible writing!  Oh yeah, and there's a reason Shirley Fennes is the most hated character in all of the series!  She gets kidnapped alot, she's so clinging, has an annoying voice (English and Japanese), and because of all that, so many people wants her to die a horrible death, especially for setting females back 1,000 years!
*Dungeon are horribly designed!  Long, linear dungeons with high random encounter rates (which later Tales finally getting rid of, thank goodness) with a tacked on room for one puzzle and that's it.  Worst of all, the character quests make you go through those horrible dungeons...again!

And just to mention a few things:
*You may say the music is a saving grace but it does overuse the tunes in the game it gets dull quicker.  In fact, it's not all that special.  Heck, I don't remember that many!
*Graphics.  Meh.  Only thing worth mentioning is that it has the suckiest Indignation in all of the series!  Enough to call the iconic spell a flaw with the game!  I mean, it's just a small spark!  Other than that, the graphics are meh.

Seriously, with all I outlined here, Tales of Legendia is a game not worth defending and can't be defended!  Apollo Justice can't defend Tales of Legendia!  Not even Phoenix Wright can defend Tales of Legendia!  They'll lose their case if they ever defend Tales of Legendia!  That's how bad the game is!  That's why you need to play the entire game before saying it's any good!  I played through the game once and now I'm realizing just now how horrible it is.

Now that that's out of the way, to put it this way, if you're all claiming CD-I Zelda is as bad as they say, you're pretty much saying that's the truth and the facts!  You know what that means?  All that I outlined in the problems with Tales of Legendia...they are also the truth/facts.

So, yes, the CD-I Zelda games and Tales of Legendia are both horrible!  Both are deserving of all the bashing it gets!  (And I thought webmaster Cless stated plenty of the above...but not all for the major reasons Tales of Legendia sucks a couple of times)

[pedrocasilva]

I like Legendia, it is flawed, but they're flaws that can be forgiven taking into account that it wasn't done by tales studio and that it was that teams first rpg. Taking odd character modeling aside I love the visual aspect for it (the towns and overall lightning), love the music and even like the argument/idea for the game, which is pretty fresh (que quest after the main quest is done, part), and of course it's cheesy, it's Tales!

So I might add that I have some expectations for Sword of Legendia (supposedly coming from the same team). Oh, and I love Chloe, from the top of my head she should be in my Top3 Tales female characters... or at least in the top 4 (arche>tear>chloe>sheena)

the CDi Zelda's totally suck though; I can't possibly put legendia in the same bin, sorry... that's too much. hell, I can't even put Tales of the Tempest on that bin!


Oh, and I don't remember ever playing "Tales of" in multiplayer, I know it's there, I'm glad it's there and I know a lot of people value it... but I just never used it, or plan to. on that account the fact Tales of Legendia lacks it is inconsequential for me.

[Cless Aileron]

Ah yes!  The whole, "It wasn't Tales Studio!  It was the Tekken team!  It was their first RPG!  I'm willing to forgive them for problems!"  Still not an excuse!  After all, I'm remembering a certain victory quote from Soul Calibur IV from the stock voices for the create a character mode.  Oh yeah, it stated that, "Effort doesn't equal victory!"  Yep.  Even if it was their first game, they are not excused for this half-baked installment.  There were plenty of material to reference and they do have experience in development.  They needed better research!  They were not the development team of Secret of Evermore (where everyone on that team were new and was their first job making a game of any genre).

Thinking about it...after taking the cheesiness to a ridiculous level, no wonder they decided Tales of the Abyss needed to be darker!  After all, so many wanted the Tales story to go darker and it did (which caused people to love it and called not that derivative for many people.  Oh yeah, and people still calling it the best Tales ever).

Sorry, people are not going to forgive the Tekken team just because it was their first RPG (and after bragging the battle system plays like a fighting game [Wait!  It was always like that for Tales] and considering they know fighting game...oh wait, 3D fighting game, that's another strike against them).

Still can't see how Tales of Legendia is better than CD-I Zelda.

(And this is the nicest I'm being to Legendia right now.  If I was really pushing it, I would compare the horrid level, disregarding the different genre, to Convoy no Nazo.)

[pedrocasilva]

Ah yes!  The whole, "It wasn't Tales Studio!  It was the Tekken team!  It was their first RPG!  I'm willing to forgive them for problems!"

Tekken team? I always heard they were remnants of the Soul Calibur team.

Still not an excuse!  After all, I'm remembering a certain victory quote from Soul Calibur IV from the stock voices for the create a character mode.  Oh yeah, it stated that, "Effort doesn't equal victory!"  Yep.  Even if it was their first game, they are not excused for this half-baked installment.  There were plenty of material to reference and they do have experience in development.  They needed better research!  They were not the development team of Secret of Evermore (where everyone on that team were new and was their first job making a game of any genre).

And why is it half baked? I'll agree that for a Tales game it is kinda half baked, but if we were talking about being a regular RPG, and not a tales... I wouldn't say so.

The game didn't even have Tales in it's codename (project MelFes) which is a first... I'd say it probably wasn't meant to be a Tales game at first.

Thinking about it...after taking the cheesiness to a ridiculous level, no wonder they decided Tales of the Abyss needed to be darker!  After all, so many wanted the Tales story to go darker and it did (which caused people to love it and called not that derivative for many people.  Oh yeah, and people still calling it the best Tales ever).

That's the recipe for overating stuff.

Tales of the Abyss story was all over the place regarding story... and emo luke, emo natalia and emo everything got in my nerves.

Still can't see how Tales of Legendia is better than CD-I Zelda.

(And this is the nicest I'm being to Legendia right now.  If I was really pushing it, I would compare the horrid level, disregarding the different genre, to Convoy no Nazo.)

you're evil you deserve to be forced to play CDi Zelda.

[Craymel]

I did play legendia I just didn't play that much of it is what I should have said. I actually bought it and after playing it for a while I returned it for store credit. I absolutely hated the dub which comes second only to tales of eternia when it comes to bad tales dubbing (but I can turn the voices off in eternia). I wasn't really having much fun with it either it seemed to drone on. Even though I didn't like I still say it's a much better game then the cdI zeldas could ever hope to be.

[pedrocasilva]

I did play legendia I just didn't play that much of it is what I should have said. I actually bought it and after playing it for a while I returned it for store credit. I absolutely hated the dub which comes second only to tales of eternia when it comes to bad tales dubbing (but I can turn the voices off in eternia). I wasn't really having much fun with it either it seemed to drone on. Even though I didn't like I still say it's a much better game then the cdI zeldas could ever hope to be.

I have the original, but I played the undub (english voiced swapped with the original ones). So that at least, doesn't apply to my experience.

[Cless Aileron]

Tekken team? I always heard they were remnants of the Soul Calibur team.

I heard Tekken team.  Maybe some Soul Calibur members were there too.

And why is it half baked? I'll agree that for a Tales game it is kinda half baked, but if we were talking about being a regular RPG, and not a tales... I wouldn't say so.

It's still an RPG and still half-baked, Tales or otherwise.

That's the recipe for overating stuff.

Tales of the Abyss story was all over the place regarding story... and emo luke, emo natalia and emo everything got in my nerves.

At least it was better than that badly written story from Tales of Legendia.

And please, if you actually paid attention to Luke's story, he had every right to be emo!  He's a legit emo, unlike the jerk known as Leon Magnus or the pussy known as Emil (who deserves more hate than Luke and were more annoying than Luke)!

But then again, I can say you're overrating the awful Tales of Legendia yourself, trying to make it out to be better than it really is.

you're evil you deserve to be forced to play CDi Zelda.

What?  For comparing the embarrassment of two different series and seeing that they're of the same quality (when they are)?  They're barely anything good about either one of them.

Honestly, I'm still not convinced Tales of Legendia isn't a piece of crap (which it is).

P.S.  After playing Transformers: Convoy no Nazo, I don't think any other game can anger me as much as that game.  That and Rise of the Robots.  Still doesn't excuse Tales of Legendia.

[Cless]

Tales of Legendia was easily one of the weakest RPGs I've played from last gen, and the worst mainline game in the series. I only slogged through it because it was Tales. About the only things I can give it credit for was its environmental art direction, and I thought most of the characters were a little better than average. I even think that most of the VA was just fine. The game just fails so hard in gameplay and exploration that I find even the oldest, most unrefined games in the series more satisfying to play. There were even some rumors that the game was in development around the completion of Tales of Eternia, and then revived later in the PS2's life. It should have stayed shelved, if that's true.

I can't say anything about the CD-I Zeldas, but I got more enjoyment out of the disappointing Star Ocean 3 and middle of the road RPGs like Wild ARMs 3 and Shadow Hearts 1 than Legendia.

[Cless Aileron]

Thank you!  At least someone was willing to talk about it without getting all apologetic over Tales of Legendia, especially when I decided I was going to compare its quality against CD-I Zelda (particularly with its infamous reputation and said article).  Putting them against each other and all of a sudden, everyone's defending Tales of Legendia (It's as if I say both Spirits Within and Advent Children sucks as Final Fantasy movies with everyone jumping to defend Advent Children).

Okay, the only thing that no one can defend the game in anyway for is its gameplay.  Currently, no one defended the game's gameplay thoroughly and it looks like everyone knows the gameplay was horrible (and cemented Tales of Legendia as a horrible game since that's the biggest part of the game).  Even though everyone wants to defend the game (for some reason) on other parts of the game (though they're bad too), no one can deny that the gameplay, dungeon designs, story, and Shirley Fennes are in no way able to be defended for being what the biggest aspect that made Legendia horrible.

(Like I said, even Phoenix Wright would lose this case defending Tales of Legendia in this court of gaming law.  There's no evidence that shows that Tales of Legendia's gameplay isn't bad)

There were even some rumors that the game was in development around the completion of Tales of Eternia, and then revived later in the PS2's life. It should have stayed shelved, if that's true.

I must have forgotten about that.

Speaking of which, "Sword of Legendia."  Maybe it's because of Tales of Legendia that got it associated with this one but I actually heard that "Sword of Legendia" is not a Tales game!  I think it was confirmed sometime ago.  I mean, seriously, why make a sequel to an awful Tales game?

[Cless]

and Shirley Fennes are in no way able to be defended for being what the biggest aspect that made Legendia horrible.

I have a confession. I like Sandy Fox, the VA for Shirley, Mieu, Flonne in Disgaea, and Marona in Phantom Brave. Everyone finds her annoying in just about every role she plays, however. I thought she was perfect in the NIS game roles, though. I probably won't be able to live this down.